Another KA-BAR vintage question

J

Joel779

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Jun 6, 2014
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I just acquired this knife from my brother-in-law, and started to look around for information on date of manufacture. I am hoping someone can give me a clue if this is 1) authentic KA-BAR 2) Is it WWII 3) If not, aprox what 'era' was it manufactured. A brief description: full length blade, marked USMC on right side of blade, marked KA-BAR on left side of blade. No indications of location of manufacture ( Olean, NY, etc). Pommel is thin and pinned through a rectangular tang. Pin appears to be through pommel and exits opposite side.

Pics can be seen at:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/taylor_aguirre_pics/sets/72157644633910357/

I have not included any photos of the sheath, as this is obviously 'aftermarket' and has no relevance to knife/blade.

Not really interested in value or anything, just the aprox era it was manufactured.

Thanks in advance for all the expert observations. :)
 
This is a WW2 Kabar produced 1219C2 USMC Fighting/Utility knife. Camillus delivered the first ones to the Marines in February 1943. Kabar shipped their first batch sometime after that. Kabar only made these knives from February or March 1943 through August 1945, when all contracts were cancelled with the end of the war.

This knife is one of the "middle period" manufactured knives.
The "first generation" were marked like yours but had a round, thick pommel, peened tang.
The "second generation" had the same stamps but had a square/rectangular, thick pommel peened tang.
Yours is a "third generation" transitional example - old ricasso stamps but thin pommel, pinned all the way through.
Later (the actual order of changes escapes me right now) moved the stamps to the guard and the pinned tang was changed to a "blind pin", not going all the way through the pommel.

Off the top of my head, I guess mid-1944.
 
Hey ZZyzz,

Thanks so much for this information. Definitely makes the thing stand out in my mind as an example of a historical artifact. I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge on this subject.

Regards,

Joel
 
zzyzzogeton said:
This is a WW2 Kabar produced 1219C2 USMC Fighting/Utility knife. Camillus delivered the first ones to the Marines in February 1943. Kabar shipped their first batch sometime after that. Kabar only made these knives from February or March 1943 through August 1945, when all contracts were cancelled with the end of the war.

This knife is one of the "middle period" manufactured knives.

The "first generation" were marked like yours but had a round, thick pommel, peened tang.
Click to expand...

Wasn't the first generation the thin peened pommel?

zzyzzogeton said:
The "second generation" had the same stamps but had a square/rectangular, thick pommel peened tang.
Yours is a "third generation" transitional example - old ricasso stamps but thin pommel, pinned all the way through.
Later (the actual order of changes escapes me right now) moved the stamps to the guard and the pinned tang was changed to a "blind pin", not going all the way through the pommel.
Click to expand...

The blind pin was never used on any WWII versions but is unique to the modern knife.
 
The first versions had 3/8" thick pommels and were threaded on with a keeper nut. Then they went to a 3/8" threaded pommel and peened over. The next change was to a 3/8" pommel with square/rectangular tang peened over. Then came the 1/4" thick pommel with a pin going all the way through, showing on both sides of the pommel. The last change was to make the pin a 3/4 blind pin on the 1/4" pommel. This change was supposed to be due to the pins falling out when the knife was being used as a hammer. I can't remember exactly where I read that, but it was in a document listing all the contract changes to the knife in the order they occurred (including the stamping changes). Can't find the link quickly, but will make a concerted look tonight. I may be wrong, but I think it was something researched and written up by Mr. Traszka.
 
I believe the first knives had the thick pommel, (approximately 3/8"), and where threaded. The round end of the tang was either welded or staked. I've heard collectors argue this point. I don't have the guts to destroy an old knife to discover which. It's possible that both methods were used at one time or another.
I remember that the first Camillus knives used the nut on the threaded pommel. Not so sure about the first KaBars. I think the source you're referring to are two articles that Frank wrote for Knife World in Dec 2005 and Jan 2006. I don't have those handy to check. I'll have to barrow them from a friend when he gets back in town.

The blind pin is something that KA-BAR uses on their commercial knives. The Government specifications doesn't call for this. The contract knives have used the 1/4" thick pommel and the through cross pins on all the knives I've seen made post WW2.
 
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I was always under the impression that the first kabar version was the blued blade, red spacer, peened rounded tang like this one:



I consider this pommel as being the thinner version (1/4) as compared to the current commercial production (3/8).
 
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sac troop said:
I believe the first knives had the thick pommel, (approximately 3/8"), and where threaded. The round end of the tang was either welded or staked. I've heard collectors argue this point. I don't have the guts to destroy an old knife to discover which. It's possible that both methods were used at one time or another.
I remember that the first Camillus knives used the nut on the threaded pommel. Not so sure about the first KaBars.
Click to expand...

I have only seen the early Camillus version of the Mark 2 with the heavy threaded thick pommel. They reportedly broke easy and Camillus did a redesign with a thinner pinned pommel.


sac troop said:
I think the source you're referring to are two articles that Frank wrote for Knife World in Dec 2005 and Jan 2006. I don't have those handy to check. I'll have to barrow them from a friend when he gets back in town.

The blind pin is something that KA-BAR uses on their commercial knives. The Government specifications doesn't call for this. The contract knives have used the 1/4" thick pommel and the through cross pins on all the knives I've seen made post WW2.
Click to expand...

Yup. :)
 
Well, if they never had blind pommel pins, I've learned something new. I'll have to dig through the rest of mine out in the shop. I sure thought I had a guard marked blind pin, but maybe I don't.

As far as thick pommels go, these are what I have in the house (all the rest are out in the shop). Sorry for the fuzzy focus - apparently, my camera has decided not to focus properly up close.)
From left to right, 4 thick pommels and a thin pommel.
Camillus w/ threaded nut, Kabar Ricasso marked, thick, round peened pommel, Kabar straight line guard marked, square peened, thick pommel, Kabar Guard Marked, rectangular peened, thick pommel and a Kabar Guard marked through-pinned, thin pommel.
5 Pommels.jpg

A little better pic of the (L to R) Camillus, Kabar Round, Peened and Kabar Straight Line Rectangular, Peened
MK2s - Cam G1 K G1 SLK.jpg

And (L to R) the Kabar Straight Line again, followed by the Kabar Guard Marked Thick, Rectangular peened pommel and then the pinned Guard marked thin pommel.
Mk2s - SL K G2KGdMkd Gen3K.jpg

And lastly, a shot showing the thick and thin pommels, side by side
Thick and Thin.jpg
 
I've always considered the "red spacer" knives whether KA-BAR, PAL, or Robeson to be examples of their earliest examples. At least that's how it was explained to me. Don't remember ever seeing a Camillus example with red spacers, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
With the KA-BAR's with thick pommels I've seen them on rectangular and round tangs. Never seen a thick pommel with a pin until the re-issue knives starting in the 70's.
Don't think I've ever seen a PAL with a thin pommel. All of the other WW2 makers I've seen examples with thin pommels on rectangular tangs with cross pins.
 
sac troop said:
FYI, you can download the present Government specs for the knife and sheath from here:
http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL-SPECS-MIL-DTL/MIL-DTL-20277-1_20513/

I've downloaded from here before, I have no connection to this site.
Click to expand...

Sac troop,

Have you had anyone manufacture a sheath using the gov specs? I wanted Peloza Leather to make a Mark 2 sheath using the gov specs but he wasn't interested in doing one. Vince does the best work I have ever seen doing repro sheaths. I had him make me a Gerber Mark 2 and a Johnson style Model "C" sheath for a Randall 14.
 
I haven’t had anyone put a sheath together using the spec sheet yet.
Certainly that was one of the reasons for collecting that information.

For the most part I’m less interested in knives that don’t come with an acceptable example of the original sheath they were paired with.
Original sheaths can be harder to come by alone than with a knife. IMHO you usually end up overpaying for them too.

I’m not impressed with the usual quality of todays 1219C2 replacement sheaths available on the market. I understand why they are like that. It’s hard to convince someone to pay as much or more for just a sheath as they did for the knife that goes into it.

I can understand why you’d want Peloza Leather to make your sheath. Never a question about the quality of the work with them.

I don’t think the hard part is finding a leatherworker who makes quality products. I think the hard part is finding one who is interested in making one that matches the spec sheet. Most of them seem to keep pretty busy making things the way they are used to.

I guess this is why they say; “If you got the money, then I got the time.”
 
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