Another mini mill hunt-Europe version

[Tony Mont]

Good morning everybody!

As the title says, I'm in the hunt for a mini mill and need your advice.

First and foremost, my knowledge on mills is non-existent. All I know is that the spindle taper matters but I don't know which is better and that weight adds stability and I should buy the biggest machine I can.
Apart from my non-existent knowledge, my goal for the machine is to primarily mill slots for guards on any material (stainless, annealed damascus,bronze etc) and mill out the occasional fuller. I realise that like any other tool, over the course of time I will find more uses for it and a better initial purchase will pay down the line.

My budget for this endeavor is ~2500 euros (for the machine only, I know collets, tools etc are an extra).
My only requirement is for the machine to be shipped from EU (UK does not count, there are customs between UK and EU).
Going for a used machine is a no no. I do not have the space for a big mill, nor the knowledge to check whether a used machine is good to go.

I'm going to add a few of machines I've found within my budget.

1) OPTIMUM Drilling Milling Machine MH 22V - Vario
stable milling machine with tool-fast-resetting clamping system, electronically adjustable drive and digital speed / drilling depth display

• Drilling capacity (steel-S235JR): diameter 20 mm
• Continuous drilling performance (steel-S235JR): 16 mm
• Knife head size: max. 52 mm
• Cutter size: max. 12 mm
• Pinolenhub: 40 mm
• Projection: 170 mm
• Spindle holder: BT 20
• Spindle speeds: 90 - 3000 min-1
• Gearboxes: 2 - continuously adjustable in the steps
• Motor power: 0.95 kW | 230 V - 50 Hz
• Swivel range milling head: +/- 60 degrees
• Milling Table Size (LxW): 700 x 180 mm
• Milling Table Distance Spindle: max. 360 mm
• Milling table tray: max. 50 kg
• Milling table nuts: 12 mm / 3 / distance 63 mm
• Travel X-axis: 480 mm (manual)
• Travel path Y-axis: 175 mm (manual)
• Travel road Z-axis: 270 mm (manual)
• EMC class DIN EN 55011: C2
• Dimensions (LxWxH): 745 x 650 x 950 mm
• Weight (net): approx. 120 kg
• Including tool quick span system, drill chuck protection and operating instructions

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2)ProMAC FX-820 VA drilling milling machine
compact drilling milling machine with continuously adjustable speed in 2 gear stages, right / left-hand running, digital speed and Drilling depth indicator and quill fine feed

• Drilling capacity steel (S235JR): 20 mm
• Knife head size: max. 60 mm diameter
• Cutter size: max. 20 mm
• Outreach: 160 mm
• Pinolen stroke: 50 mm
• Spindle mount: MK2 / M10
• Spindle speeds: 300 - 2,300 min-1
• Speed measures: 2 / steplessly i. d. Stages adjustable
• Motor power: 0.75 kW / 230 V / 50 Hz
• Swivel range milling head: 45° left / 45° right
• Milling Table Size (LxW): 700 x 180 mm
• T-nutries / Quantity: 12 mm
• Distance spindle table: 350 mm
• Travel X-Axis: 480 mm
• Travel path Y-axis: 175 mm
• Travel travel Z-axis: 280 mm
• Dimensions (WxHxD): 860 x 860 x 550 mm
• Weight: approx. 122 kg
• Including drill chuck protection, tool suit rod M10, Kegeldorn MK2 / B16, drill chuck 13 mm

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3) OPTIMUM Drilling Milling Machine MH 20 V - Vario
MH20V drilling milling machine with 500 mm table length, finish feed, controllable drive, right / left-hand head and operating panel with digital speed and etc. Drilling depth displayDrilling capacity (steel-S235JR): 16 mm

• Continuous drilling performance (steel-S235JR): 12 mm
• Knife head size: max. 52 mm
• Cutter size: max. 20 mm
• Pinolen stroke: 50 mm
• Projection: 170 mm
• Spindle holder: MK 2 / Suit bar M10
• Spindle speeds: 100 - 3000 min-1
• Gearboxes: 2 - continuously adjustable in the steps
• Motor power: 0.75 kW | 230 V - 50 Hz
• Swivel range milling head: +/- 60 degrees
• Milling Table Size (LxB): 510 x 180 mm
• Milling table spacing spindle: max. 255 mm
• Milling table tram line: max. 40 kg
• Milling table nuts: 12 mm / 3 / distance 63 mm
• Travel X-axis: 280 mm (manual)
• Travel path Y-axis: 175 mm (manual)
• Travel travel Z-axis: 210 mm (manual)
• EMC class DIN EN 55011: C2
• Dimensions (LxWxH): 750 x 650 x 820 mm
• Weight (net): approx. 94 kg
• Including drill chuck protection, tool suit rod M10 and operating instructions

Looking forward to your input.

 

[pafka]

Hi Tony.

I use Optimill BF20, so an older variant of those two that you list (give or take). I am happy with it for milling slots, I think this weight class is perfectly fine for that task.
What I think you definitely need is positional digital read out. Not that you can't work without it, but it's a completely different experience. I added mine with an aftermarket set, but it still cost a couple hundred euros and you have to install it yourself, so it's a hassle.

In case you are not aware of this store, paulimot.de is decent. I bought a lathe from them and am happy with it. Of course, the machines are kind of the same deal (Chinese import), but hopefully with better QA and the motors are supposedly German.

For example this machine is within your budget, has DRO, is quite heavy, looks ok. Possibly worth considering. https://www.paulimot.de/en-gb/detail/da1d4aec8f794f4692d908438fea1985

Also a set of gage blocks is quite useful for checking where you are with the width of the slot, I would set aside 100-200 Euro for that.

 

[Lorien]

we don't have the same options in Canada, but machines more or less direct from China are available in addition to a Canadian brand and some other self branded units- all of which probably come from the same sources.

I've been doing some research for the past year or so on machines, so I'll share my general thoughts about what I've learned- none of which has anything to do with brand or sources
-I want the biggest mill that will fit in my limited space. Not a knee mill and not a mill drill. If I'm gonna have a mill, I want to be able to use it for all kinds of things- a big mill can do small things, but a small mill can't do big things
-I want the motor to be belt driven from the factory, yes you can modify a gear drive but I'd rather spend my time and money with other stuff
-R8 collets are the way to go, and it pays to get ultra precise ones
-DRO is something that really expands the versatility of the tool
-after sales service and warranty might be important, but I hope not- cheaper machines are not as well supported. Maybe it matters? Dunno
-the first thing I'll do is take my machine apart, (to move it mostly) and figure it out so I can fix it etc
-I expect to pay another 50% or so on top of the cost of the machine in order to have all the fixturing and cutting tools and accessories I'll need

 

[Tony Mont]

First of all, thank you guys for the help!

pafka this machine looks pretty inclusive for the price, I've added it to my list of possible machines.

I forgot to mention, a DRO will definitely be added. It appears a built in from the get go will be a wise choice.

Lorien
I had not considered the gear vs belt driven factor. My understanding on the matter is that a belt driven motor is quiter and safer in case of a crash. Also, it's easier to change the belt when needed instead of gears. Am I missing something here? My next question may sound stupid but it's a legit one. On this website ( https://www.paulimot.de/en-gb/machinery/milling-machines/ ), there are two categories, milling machines with a manual gearbox and milling machines with a vario drive. I suppose the vario drive is the belt driven, right? Because that's the only two types I can find in EU on this price range.

Also, I've not seen any with R8 collets. Usually for the spindle holder, they have MK2 / M10 or SK30 / M12.
I've no idea whether these are interchangeable or if even MK2 etc are tapers for the collets.

Another topic for discussion I forgot to mention in my original post is the tilting head/column. Many suggest a fixed mini mill because they are not rigid to begin with and adding swivelling parts sacrifices the already low rigidity. I understand this concept, however is it applicable to knife making? I'm not going to make any folding knives.

 

[Timberjack logger]

I know nothing of mini mills but do of bigger mills and belt feed would be my choice variable speed if you can get it. as for tilting head , you can just use angle vises and fixture setups if you need them.

 

[Lorien]

I'm certainly not an expert in any way, shape or form on this topic, but it seems to me that a vario drive must be stepless, whereas a manual gearbox would require the operator to manually change from low to high range?

the tilting head I think could give your mill some versatility in that your facers, cutter etc can be angled. I doubt that in a machine this size that it really compromises anything much, you'd just have to make sure the machine is trammed on a more regular basis

as for collets- I'd go for the machine whose collet spec offers the widest range of tool holding options/ most access to different cutters etc. Over here, R8 is the one- might be different where you're at

 

[pafka]

I would argue that R8 collets are not as good as e.g. ER collets - they close only at the very opening of the collet, and hence have a smaller clamping range. I bought a reasonably priced set of high precision ER32 collets (I believe less than 4 micron runout), and I can clamp anything from 1.5 mm to 20 mm with 20 collets.

The "vario" feature will mean (I'm 99% sure based on the machines they show) an electronic regulation of the spindle speed, not sure if it automatically implies a belt drive. You can have both the electronic control as well as a gearbox - my machine has a knob for adjusting the RPM of the motor, but it also has two gear ranges (high-low). The machines that only list the manual gearbox will have some knobs that let you pick one of the predefined configurations in the gearbox.

The MK 2 (Morse taper size 2) or SK30 is the taper that goes into the spindle. M10 or M12 is a designation of the thread on the drawbar (the bar that screws from the top of the spindle into whatever you are putting into it to secure it in place). I think SK30 would be better suited for milling (it is self releasing, while the Morse taper needs more persuasion to remove from the spindle sometimes). I think having an SK30 spindle and buying an SK30-ER32 (or ER40) collet chuck would be the best solution with a good set of collets. You will also probably need a regular drill chuck. On the other hand I think Morse taper tooling will be cheaper.

For example here is Morse taper holder for ER32 collets, and here is the same but with SK30 taper. You will simply need one of those (provided you go for the ER32 collet system) that matches your mill.

The tilting head is more of a pain for me for the reason that Lorien mentioned - if it gets out of tram, you may not notice and scrap some parts before you do. But they just put the tilting head to almost all these machines so I'm afraid you won't have much choice.

 

[Jesse Latham]

On the collets, I agree with Pafka. I use ER25 collets which allow me to use drill bits from #55 to 5/8". My mill has electronic VS plus a two-speed gear box.

 

[Tony Mont]

Thank you guys, slowly but surely things are starting to make some kind of sense.

With all the advice in mind, I've narrowed my choices down to three. All three run on a belt drive (from my understanding), have SK30 spindle holder and a DRO.

The reason option 1 is in the game is due to the fact that it has a fixed head/column. Option 2 is better in every way apart from the fact that the head tilts to 90 degrees, would that be a deal breaker and make option 1 a better choice even if it's smaller in every way?

Option 3 seems like the best of the three. No tilting head/column and is as beefy as it could be, it is however over my budget currently.
Is it worth it to wait a little bit more and go for the option three?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Option 1)

SIEG SX2.7L​

Option 2)

SIEG SX3L​

Option 3)

SIEG SX3.5Z​

 

[HSC ///]

I know you say you don't want used but there's a lot of good buys in the EU for quality equipment. I bought this for not much more than your budget requirements.

i got this rare Sixis 102, came to me from the Netherlands shipped to France. it has a BT30 taper

It's not as big and heavy duty as the sixis 103 but I'm fine with the size and capacity

total weight is about 270 kg

one added benefit of buying used is they often come with a bunch of extra tooling, holders, vise, etc.

 

[Tony Mont]

I know you say you don't want used but there's a lot of good buys in the EU for quality equipment. I bought this for not much more than your budget requirements.

i got this rare Sixis 102, came to me from the Netherlands shipped to France. it has a BT30 taper

It's not as big and heavy duty as the sixis 103 but I'm fine with the size and capacity

total weight is about 270 kg

one added benefit of buying used is they often come with a bunch of extra tooling, holders, vise, etc.

I will revisit the idea of a used machine, do you know any specific websites about used machines? Something in particular I should worry about/pay attention to?

 

[Lorien]

I know you say you don't want used but there's a lot of good buys in the EU for quality equipment. I bought this for not much more than your budget requirements.

i got this rare Sixis 102, came to me from the Netherlands shipped to France. it has a BT30 taper

It's not as big and heavy duty as the sixis 103 but I'm fine with the size and capacity

total weight is about 270 kg

one added benefit of buying used is they often come with a bunch of extra tooling, holders, vise, etc.

I'm in love

 

[HSC ///]

I will revisit the idea of a used machine, do you know any specific websites about used machines? Something in particular I should worry about/pay attention to?

send me an email and i can send you some links and suggestions

hsc3knives@gmail.com

buying a new machine is easy because you just send them the money and they send you a machine

buying a used machine requires a lot more time and patience to get the right one for you, but you have the opportunity to get something very interesting, more robust and perhaps more for your money.

 

[Kevin Wilkins]

I have both a Lathe and a small mill from Optimum that I've been using for over 15 years. Both are good quality for their size and cost. One important advantage for Optimum over many other Chinese made machine tools is that the German importer for Optimum has been in business a long time and also offers parts and service for the machines they sell. Here is a good mill from them: https://www.stuermer-maschinen.de/m...aschinen-konventionell/optimill-mb-4-3338451/
The smaller 20Vario is also good but bigger is always better. The ER25 collet system is by far the best for these machines!