Antique Knife and Scabbard, Civil War?

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Dusty0103

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Mar 1, 2021
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I have an Antique Knife and Scabbard, Civil War era?. Does anyone know if that assumption is correct and / or can provide more information on this knife?

 
Cutlery handled dirk. Without knowning the brand best you can say is perhaps last 40 years of the 19th century is reasonable for a date. I'm also concerned that the blade didn't originally go to the handle and sheath. The quality and proportions are off.
 
tltt said:
I'm also concerned that the blade didn't originally go to the handle and sheath. The quality and proportions are off.
Click to expand...
Agree.

At best a "Frankenknife". Doubtful the blade dates older than the 1980's or later. A common kit knife shape, and easy to artificially age, especially since its carbon steel.

To me the handle looks like it was originally on a 1950's to 1970's turkey/ham carving set, like my maternal grandmother had in the 1960's that matched her service for 12 special occasion fancy Onida(?) flatware/ tableware.
I'm pretty sure tableware companies (and those that make the carving sets) are still making that handle design.

Half a paper sheath?
Not Civil War on either side, even if brought from home by some trooper.
They had leather or a combination of leather and canvas.
Most CW troopers on both sides were farm boys. They grew their own beef, pork, and lamb/goat, plus hunted deer, boar, and other big game. They knew how to tan the hides, rather than waste them in the compost pile, so had access to leather, and were skilled enough to make a sheath. (and all the tack for the plow and wagon horses/mules or ox, and any riding horses/mules they had on the farm.)
More likely a late 20th century Pukkoo sheath someone destroyed and put with the knife to "help" pass the set off as "antique".
 
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The handle looks like it came from my grandmother's silverware set. I don't think it's from the Civil War, but I could be wrong.
 
Actually - the sheath does have a look to it that could place it as being made during the Civil War period.
Leather & metal were in short supply.

The South* particularly turned to using another source for tanned hides - shark and ray skins.
Shark and ray skins are many times longer wearing than leather - given poor or no care at all.

Maybe it's just me seeing something that's not there - but - it looks like there are scales (like fish scales) on the worn spots.

*55 years ago, on a business trip to Philadelphia with my dad, my mom and I were shopping in the city's antique stores. I had saved up my allowance to buy a sword from one of the stores that I had spotted the previous year. I wanted a fancy wall hanger, but, mom talked me into a poor condition "Civil War" saber.
Since we were near the history museum, we took a chance that we could meet with someone there that could check it out.
Thankfully, one of the staff was very interested in the sword & wanted to see it.

He's the one that told me about the shark/ray skin being used because leather was needed more for other things - like saddles & other stuff that only leather could be used for.

The knife & handle do look Franken-knife though.
 
Thanks to all, I understand this is an unusual case.
To those that state the knife is of 20th century dating, I respectfully submit, the knife has been in my family since at least 1900, if not before.
It may not be Civil War era but it is older than 1980 and not "artificially aged"
 
Dusty0103 said:
Thanks to all, I understand this is an unusual case.
To those that state the knife is of 20th century dating, I respectfully submit, the knife has been in my family since at least 1900, if not before.
It may not be Civil War era but it is older than 1980 and not "artificially aged"
Click to expand...

Just a friendly piece of advice, but when asking for info on an old mystery knife, it's helpful to provide everything you know about the knife in your opening post. The fact that the knife was in your family since at least 1900 is an important detail that helps rule out several possibilities.

Welcome to Bladeforums. I hope you find the info on your knife you're looking for. :)
 
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Dusty0103 said:
Thanks to all, I understand this is an unusual case.
To those that state the knife is of 20th century dating, I respectfully submit, the knife has been in my family since at least 1900, if not before.
It may not be Civil War era but it is older than 1980 and not "artificially aged"
Click to expand...

We are going to be bias towards a conservative position on these things. Anything is possible, but we are interested in whatever can be determined about the item. If it has been in the family, one of the questions that will come up is whether you have any evidence of that; ideally, that would be a clear photo of family member holding the knife during the period. One very common leap is that when a strange knife is found in Grampa's collection, it is a knife he used in WWII, or the one he inherited from his great uncle; often, it turns out to be the knife he traded for at the local barber shop shortly before he passed.

n2s
 
Dusty0103 said:
Thanks to all, I understand this is an unusual case.
To those that state the knife is of 20th century dating, I respectfully submit, the knife has been in my family since at least 1900, if not before.
It may not be Civil War era but it is older than 1980 and not "artificially aged"
Click to expand...
As has been pointed out, there are issues with this knife. It looks odd, a construct put together from parts. The blade and sheath could very well from the last quarter of the 19th century and might have been together originally. However, the handle looks like a later replacement, and the assembly looks fairly crude with a significant gap between the handle and guard, not really something you'd expect to see on a knife like this.
As to its age, as I pointed out in the other thread, there would seem to be issues with the timeline as to who owned the knives in question and when. Items from an estate get lumped together just because they are in the same place, stories get embellished, details confused or forgotten. You need to find out more about the relatives who previously owned the items in question. Were they ever in the military, did they travel, etc.....
 
Thanks to all providing comments. I agree it does seem to be a "Frankenknife" and a Cutlery handled dirk. It does appear to have a cutlery handle. Appears to be a kluge of different pieces to form this knife.
 
What matters most here is - it's been in YOUR family for over 100 years.

The hell with what anyone else on the planet says or cares right?

Something with that sort of family history pegs the "Cool meter".

My dad passed along his stamp collection from his childhood back in the 1930's. I have very little use for it - as a collection since collecting stamps was never my thing.
I'll treasure it until the day comes for me to pass it along to my grandson though - just because - it's family.

Thanks for sharing it with us & enjoy it!
 
I've seen these knives in antique stores. Dating in the early 20th C seems reasonable to me, though I am not certain. It looks like no civil war knife of which I am aware or have ever seen, but take that with a grain of salt.

Looking, I saw where another knife sold on eBay that was similarly handled, last year. The seller claimed it was a Civil War knife.
 
DocT said:
I've seen these knives in antique stores. Dating in the early 20th C seems reasonable to me, though I am not certain. It looks like no civil war knife of which I am aware or have ever seen, but take that with a grain of salt.

Looking, I saw where another knife sold on eBay that was similarly handled, last year. The seller claimed it was a Civil War knife.
Click to expand...

They can go back to the Civil War, and the last time I saw versions cataloged was around 1904 or so. Joseph Rodgers and a few of the old Sheffield firms kept some of the old 19th century designs going into the very early 20th century.

The problem that the blades in these old cutlery handled knives have no mechanical fasteners in them. They're held in with "cutler's rosin" which given time and heat, you can work the blade loose. So they get rebladed a lot, etc.... Also during the late 1960's early 70's when people collecting knives really began to take off, a lot of people went over Sheffield and bought unused parts. They also got the old dies running or built new ones make new handles in a few old patterns.

People collect them, but aside from a few patterns, they aren't very high dollar compared to other vintage fighting knives.
 
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