Any recommendations for Norton Waterstones?

O

Ourorboros

Joined
Jan 23, 2017
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So a site has a sale on Norton waterstones and I'm tempted to try a combo stone.
I have no specific needs here, I'm covered up and down the spectrum. If I get one, it's just to try out the series.
Has anybody used these? Do you feel that stones are better in specific grits and that some are absolute dogs?
The choices are:
220/1000
1000/4000
1000/8000
4000/8000

Thanks for any tips.
 
I have the 220/1000 and 4k/8k and they are decent. If they are on sale for half price or better they are worth a try, but honestly I wouldn't recommend them, there are much better water stones.
 
Ouch. Most the negatives I've read are about the 220, but that's common in every line.
I'll take your word for it though.
 
Ourorboros said:
So a site has a sale on Norton waterstones and I'm tempted to try a combo stone.
I have no specific needs here, I'm covered up and down the spectrum. If I get one, it's just to try out the series.
Has anybody used these? Do you feel that stones are better in specific grits and that some are absolute dogs?
The choices are:
220/1000
1000/4000
1000/8000
4000/8000

Thanks for any tips.
Click to expand...
The 220 is literal garbage. I absolute emplore you not to waste your money. I am, however, quite pleased with my full 1k and my 4k/8k combo. You'll still need a strop and some compound to bring out a clean mirror, but the results are excellent. The 1k is relatively coarse. I'd say it competes well against the Bester 700. Given the coarser finish, I really appreciate having the 4k bridge stone. I dont like having any stone 1k or lower as a combo because the lower stones wear too fast compared to finishing stones, but I would absolutely recommend the 4k/8k combo, and I think the 1k full plus the 4k/8k combo are a great set together. And then for real coarse work, skip the garbo 220 and grab a diamond plate that can double as a flattening stone... but like you said, youre already covered so that is probably useless advice for you.

Ultimately, if you get the 4k/8k on sale, its definitely worth it. I don't think the 1k in a combo is enough actual stone so I dont recommend any combos with it. But at FULL PRICE, I don't think the Nortons compete very well. Theyre priced a little high given what theyre up against
 
I'd recommend against the Norton's considering one can get Naniwa quality stones very affordably in the Lobster series or Multi-stone series. They use the same stone material and composition in both lines and I can say they are very well done for the money. I would say these almost should be the basis for any comparisons made against other waterstones because of their economy and workhorse nature. They are not the best at anything really but they just work well in general.

www.sharpeningsupplies.com

Naniwa Lobster Waterstone

Purchase any 3 Naniwa Super Stones and save 10%! --> Save 10%! Buy Any 3 Stones and Save 15%! The Naniwa Lobster line of stones is Naniwa’s most budget-friendly option. You’re getting a quality Naniwa stone with the price of an economical water stone Choose from 6 grits from 220 to 3000.
www.sharpeningsupplies.com

www.sharpeningsupplies.com

Naniwa Multi Stone Waterstones

Two Grits One Stone Combination stones are a good way to get as much value as possible in a stone. By combining two grits on one stone, you get the practicality of a wider range of grits in a single package.
www.sharpeningsupplies.com

Screenshot 2023-03-29 at 8.34.42 AM.png
 
Father & Son Traditional Sharpening said:
I'd recommend against the Norton's considering one can get Naniwa quality stones very affordably in the Lobster series or Multi-stone series. They use the same stone material and composition in both lines and I can say they are very well done for the money. I would say these almost should be the basis for any comparisons made against other waterstones because of their economy and workhorse nature. They are not the best at anything really but they just work well in general.
Click to expand...
Interesting because I've been looking at stones of that nature this year. Seems like the type of thing I should know more about for people starting out.
 
Ourorboros said:
Interesting because I've been looking at stones of that nature this year. Seems like the type of thing I should know more about for people starting out.
Click to expand...

If you give me a better idea of what your expected use looks like I can help get a better recommendation for you. These stones are really best suited to Japanese knives and steels in many ways. If you grind a lot of harder western knives in fancy steels then you will be happier long term with other more expensive stones. It's only a good value if it works for your needs but if we are strictly talking Japanese knives and you need serviceable results then these are hard to beat for the money.

Naniwa is the largest and some argue the best waterstone manufacturer of Japan. That said, Japan has not been as 'steel crazy' as American has and their steels are quite simple so many Japan made stones have this limitation. Saicom, on the other hand, aggressively designs and market traditional waterstones for High Speed Steels in the Sigma Power Select II line of stones. They cost a lot more but give you significantly better results on the tougher to grind steels.

www.heartwoodtools.com

Sigma Power Select II Water Stones — Heartwood Tools

www.heartwoodtools.com www.heartwoodtools.com

Just make sure you finish your edges with trailing strokes on the waterstones or switch to a diamond/CBN plate, hard sintered ceramic or Norton India/Crystolon for finishing the actual apex. Waterstones are great at fast grinding but they really are not the best choice for setting the apex as all the loose grit they release becomes a hindrance as it dulls the edge with edge leading passes. I find edge leading passes on stones which don't release abrasive to work best at bringing high sharpness.
 
Ourorboros said:
I'm just saw these on sale and thought about seeing what they are like. But I still wasn't going to pay for junk.
I actually learned to sharpen on water stones and have diamonds stones.
Click to expand...

I mean to say what sort of knives/steels/geometry/bevels/etc. are you planning to use the stones with. This actually makes all the difference in whether you have the appropriate stones for what you need. There are not so much 'bad' stones as much as there are poorly matched stones to whatever task you are hoping to achieve. Grinding on wide primary bevels vs. narrow edge bevels will cause you to curse a very hard bond stone but if that were reversed then you would curse a very soft bond stone. Most people don't just have one knife so that makes the question even more difficult to answer considering how varied these tools can be in both design and materials.

I have not found stones that are inherently bad as much as the fact that I possibly have not found an appropriate job for the stone yet. I have a Naniwa Green Lobster 150 that releases abrasive like nobody's business, I've still not found a wide enough bevel together with a hard or carbide rich enough steel to feel that release rate to be ideal but that doesn't mean that I will not be given the opportunity one day. Something like a tall nakiri with a full flat grind in 15V might make that stone look like the absolute best and fastest stone on earth for that task given conventional abrasives.\

So from my perspective the question really becomes 'to what purpose is this stone good for?' rather than 'is this stone any good?' We humans tend to want to lump everything in a category of either good or bad and I have found in experience this is seldom helpful and basically amounts to judgement (which is often incorrect). The next question after you determine what a stone is good for would be 'is this stone a good value compared to other options that behave similarly?'. That is an even more difficult question to answer without direct experience with a large number of stones which is both costly and time consuming. There are makers who have spent a large amount time and expense evaluating this and have arrived at conclusions for what is the best stone(s) for their uses. The kicker here is that one may just simply select these stones for THEIR uses based on this finding without realizing that still may not be the actual best for THEIR unique use case. Here's an example...

This maker appears to have done quite extensive research and arrived at very narrow conclusion which may leave you very disappointed if you are grinding mainly hard vanadium carbide rich steels exlusively with very wide contact area bevels (because these stones have rather hard bonds compared to most waterstones) :

Synthetic stones | chosen by watanabe blade

Best artificial sharpening water stones which selected by Shinichi Watanabe
www.kitchen-knife.jp www.kitchen-knife.jp
 
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I own a Norton 220. Despite criticisms both here and elsewhere, I have successfully re-beveled 3 blades with this stone, then finished with 1000 and 5000 grit stones. I was pleased with the 220, it did the job just fine. The blades were not exotic steels: 1095, German Stainless kitchen knife, and 14C28N. No problems with those steels.

I should add that my style in life is to adjust my approach to the tools at hand. Not to find the right tool given the parameters of the job at hand. I am a successful competitive pool player and I play with $200 cues. I tend to make equipment work for me, and don't spend much time in search of perfect equipment. With whetstones, you can experiment and make any stone work well. There may be a few exceptions, but I doubt the Norton 220 is one of them. My 2 cents on this topic.
 
I have the 4000/8000 combination stone and I like it. It cuts pretty quickly for such a high grit stone. On the other hand, I have a strong preference for splash & go stones versus soaking stones. It's just way more convenient. If I was in the market for stones in this category I would go with the Naniwa Professional (formerly Chosera) series.

Just be advised that NONE of the stones mentioned in this thread so far will be ideal for steels with significant vanadium carbide content, which broadly means s30v and above. For those steels you'll want diamonds or CBN and I would recommend the Venev resin-bonded diamond stones.
 
Ourorboros said:
Narrow.
Click to expand...

Generally most of the Naniwa's would work well for this but have their differences.

The Green 220 Lobster may be too soft a bond and overkill for narrow bevels but would be good for thinning primary grinds. If you wanted to add the 800 and 3000 Lobster together they should pair very well. The 800 resets the edge bevel and the 3000 will give you a very nice edge for push cutting. These stones are softer than other stones in the Naniwa line such as the Traditional, Super Stone or Professional series but this can be a good thing when it comes to burr minimization in grinding. I have the 1000/3000 Multi-stone and it sharpens very well but the 1000 side strongly resists burr formation so as soon as the edge stops reflecting light at the apex you would simply switch to the 3000 grit for finishing. It is much harder and releases very little abrasive and works well for setting the apex on a micro bevel with light force.

Have you tried Shapton Professional (Kuramaku) series 220 grit and 1000 grit? The 220 works great for edge bevels of wide range of steels and the 1000 is a very quick cutter and stays very flat.
 
Father & Son Traditional Sharpening said:
Have you tried Shapton Professional (Kuramaku) series 220 grit and 1000 grit? The 220 works great for edge bevels of wide range of steels and the 1000 is a very quick cutter and stays very flat.
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I started with Shapton Pros. And some time ago I moved away from the 320. I either use a 220 to set bevels or a 500 (Glass) as a base for a full progression on a duller knife.
 
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