Anybody know about this knife? John PerMar - Extreme Lockback Folder

[Lynnsicle]

Greetings, all

Let me start off by saying that I know very little about knives, so please forgive me for not knowing anything that I'm talking about.

Yesterday, my friend showed me a knife that was passed down to him by his late great uncle. Before his passing, he told my friend that this knife was his favorite piece in his collection.

We would like to know if anybody has any information on the history of this knife and its maker. It has no informational markings on it other than the "JOHN PERMAR" inscription and the symbol, and "PAT. PEND" on the underside of the locking mechanism.

I've spent many hours searching online for information on John PerMar and this knife, but came up short on both fronts.

I then called Arizona Custom Knives and after some time they found it was called the "Extreme Lockback Folder", they sold a single one of them back in 2010, and their notes said only 20 were made. Other than this, they couldn't provide me with any other information, quote: "Honestly, I don’t know anything about him. Or that knife really."

I also contacted Knife Purveyor, and all they could tell me was that it "looks like it was made in the late 1990's early 2000's."

If anybody has any information on this knife and on John PerMar in general, we'd love to know! Thank you

Images below:

 

[DocJD]

If there was really ever a patent application filed , there should be a record of such .

 

[tltt]

John W Permar, he was based out of Florida, and a member of the Florida Knife Makers Guild, and the National Knife Makers Guild.

This is his stepson -

https://www.instagram.com/marshallhallknives/?hl=en .

https://www.facebook.com/p/Marshall-Hall-Knives-100057112943907/ .

Ask him, and Google John Permar + Cold Steel. My understanding is that he developed a lock very close to the Tri-Ad around the time Demko did, and Cold Steel was paying him a royalty on it. Your knife might have something to do with that.

 

[Lynnsicle]

If there was really ever a patent application filed , there should be a record of such .

I was able to find this a moment ago: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/56/8a/0e/0ecd892996fc94/US7222429.pdf

Preview:

 

[Lynnsicle]

John W Permar, he was based out of Florida, and a member of the Florida Knife Makers Guild, and the National Knife Makers Guild.

This is his stepson -

https://www.instagram.com/marshallhallknives/?hl=en .

https://www.facebook.com/p/Marshall-Hall-Knives-100057112943907/ .

Ask him, and Google John Permar + Cold Steel. My understanding is that he developed a lock very close to the Tri-Ad around the time Demko did, and Cold Steel was paying him a royalty on it. Your knife might have something to do with that.

Oh wow! That's really cool!

Thanks a bunch for this info! I'll look more into this

 

[DocJD]

I was able to find this a moment ago: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/56/8a/0e/0ecd892996fc94/US7222429.pdf

Preview:

That drawing does resemble the Tri-ad Lock !

 

[jbmonkey]

That drawing does resemble the Tri-ad Lock !

my first thought just looking at it...but I didn't read on it enough and get to understand it yet....

 

[Arathol]

Hmmm......The PerMar knife is marked Pat Pending, so it would have been made between 2004 and mid 2007.
The odd part......The PerMar patent was filed Jan 23, 2004 and granted May 29, 2007, the Demko patent wasn't filed until August 21, 2006. So who actually invented what? I think the real story might be quite interesting....
Then there is this from 2021, also credited to Demko, the drawings look very much like the PerMar patent art.....

Locking device for a folding knife

U.S. Patent Number 11020863 for Locking device for a folding knife

uspto.report

 

[tltt]

I remember there was a big thread on this years back that is gone now. The gist I got from it is that Demko and Permar were working on similar locks at the same time, The Demko version cleans up some of the engineering. Cold Steel was up front on this. I'm too lazy right now to clip it from old catalog PDFs, but they acknowledge PerMar by saying this -

" The Tri-ad® LOCK
"Undoubtedly, Cold Steel makes the safest, strongest folders on the planet. It’s one of many qualities that separates Cold Steel from our competitors." Our latest improvement is our patent-pending Tri-Ad® lock. Andrew Demko is the originator of the Tri-ads novel locking mechanism. It’s a successor to a patented lock design originally created by the very talented John PerMar."

Edit - 1st paragraph, bottom, page 4 -

https://www.coldsteel.com/content/catalogs/CS_2010.pdf .

Edit 2 - The PerMar mention has been seemingly deleted from newer catalogs, giving full credit to Demko now.

 

[Boru13]

That drawing does resemble the Tri-ad Lock !

Calm down Doc

 

[knarfeng]

I remember there was a big thread on this years back that is gone now. The gist I got from it is that Demko and Permar were working on similar locks at the same time, The Demko version cleans up some of the engineering. Cold Steel was up front on this. I'm too lazy right now to clip it from old catalog PDFs, but they acknowledge PerMar by saying this -

" The Tri-ad® LOCK
"Undoubtedly, Cold Steel makes the safest, strongest folders on the planet. It’s one of many qualities that separates Cold Steel from our competitors." Our latest improvement is our patent-pending Tri-Ad® lock. Andrew Demko is the originator of the Tri-ads novel locking mechanism. It’s a successor to a patented lock design originally created by the very talented John PerMar."

Edit - 1st paragraph, bottom, page 4 -

https://www.coldsteel.com/content/catalogs/CS_2010.pdf .

Edit 2 - The PerMar mention has been seemingly deleted from newer catalogs, giving full credit to Demko now.

Was it this post by Demko?

D

Post in thread 'Fred Perrin abusing a Cold Steel triad lock knife'

Apr 10, 2010

Of "adapting" John Permar's design. At least John got paid before they "adapted" his design.

CS makes some interesting looking knives, but the sleeze factor kills my interest.

no, it was all my design, when my patent was pending John Permar approched Cold Steel with his newly granted patent, LT made an agreement with John. I don't know what that was. I think John was trying to sell his patent to any cutlery company, and rightly so. Lt did not want any competetion with others and knew that securing John's patent and then getting ours allowed would be the safest thing to do. We...

• DemkoKnives

no, it was all my design, when my patent was pending John Permar approched Cold Steel with his newly granted patent, LT made an agreement with John. I don't know what that was. I think John was trying to sell his patent to any cutlery company, and rightly so. Lt did not want any competetion with others and knew that securing John's patent and then getting ours allowed would be the safest thing to do. We did our patent search for the tri-ad over a year earlier. However Permar's did not come up because it was "pending" and pending patents are not accessible.

 

[jbmonkey]

Was it this post by Demko?

D

Post in thread 'Fred Perrin abusing a Cold Steel triad lock knife'

Apr 10, 2010

Of "adapting" John Permar's design. At least John got paid before they "adapted" his design.

CS makes some interesting looking knives, but the sleeze factor kills my interest.

no, it was all my design, when my patent was pending John Permar approched Cold Steel with his newly granted patent, LT made an agreement with John. I don't know what that was. I think John was trying to sell his patent to any cutlery company, and rightly so. Lt did not want any competetion with others and knew that securing John's patent and then getting ours allowed would be the safest thing to do. We...

• DemkoKnives

that makes a lot of sense and clears that up. thanks Frank for finding and posting that.

 

[tltt]

Was it this post by Demko?

D

Post in thread 'Fred Perrin abusing a Cold Steel triad lock knife'

Apr 10, 2010

Of "adapting" John Permar's design. At least John got paid before they "adapted" his design.

CS makes some interesting looking knives, but the sleeze factor kills my interest.

no, it was all my design, when my patent was pending John Permar approched Cold Steel with his newly granted patent, LT made an agreement with John. I don't know what that was. I think John was trying to sell his patent to any cutlery company, and rightly so. Lt did not want any competetion with others and knew that securing John's patent and then getting ours allowed would be the safest thing to do. We...

• DemkoKnives

Yes, that's it !

 

[jbmonkey]

Greetings, all

Let me start off by saying that I know very little about knives, so please forgive me for not knowing anything that I'm talking about.

Yesterday, my friend showed me a knife that was passed down to him by his late great uncle. Before his passing, he told my friend that this knife was his favorite piece in his collection.

We would like to know if anybody has any information on the history of this knife and its maker. It has no informational markings on it other than the "JOHN PERMAR" inscription and the symbol, and "PAT. PEND" on the underside of the locking mechanism.

I've spent many hours searching online for information on John PerMar and this knife, but came up short on both fronts.

I then called Arizona Custom Knives and after some time they found it was called the "Extreme Lockback Folder", they sold a single one of them back in 2010, and their notes said only 20 were made. Other than this, they couldn't provide me with any other information, quote: "Honestly, I don’t know anything about him. Or that knife really."

I also contacted Knife Purveyor, and all they could tell me was that it "looks like it was made in the late 1990's early 2000's."

If anybody has any information on this knife and on John PerMar in general, we'd love to know! Thank you

Images below:

pretty cool piece of knifemaking history. what's going on with the lockback release? damage to it or some design type work on it? can't tell from the pics.....thanks.

 

[SharpBits]

pretty cool piece of knifemaking history. what's going on with the lockback release? damage to it or some design type work on it? can't tell from the pics.....thanks.

Looks like a Boye Dent with some file work added.