Anyone else make their own resin bonded stones?

3

311climber

Joined
Jun 13, 2020
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Ive been fairly deep into sharpening now for about 3 years, like started to read Todds whole blog science of sharp multiple times, plus everything on certain topics on bladeforums i could get my hands on. long story short, when getting really into stropping as some of us do, a guy on ebay had two listings for 5000 cts each of like 170-230 grit and 270-340. 66 bucks per 5000 cts. shipped. I tried stropping with it quick to learn it wasnt going to hone steel how i imagined on leather... so it got stowed away. fast forward another 18 months and the whole while i had been seeing all the venev stones etc as well as the vitrified stuff and i knew about resin bonded stones but only saw guys like BBB and diemaker playing with them. i had gotten into epoxy for minute doing some small table stuff and low and behold, something struck a cord that said pour that shit together and see what happens. Id love to start a conversation on the fun of whats been learned if there is anyone else interested in playing and possibly making cooler stones. it is quite a good time for the makers out there, and quite cost effective.

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eKretz said:
Cool topic. I would be interested in hearing more about your adventures.
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Oh man, where to begin?! haha, i could just spew stuff out at this point, lets start with the fact that ive not tried a edgepro/ diemaker matrix stone, nor a venev stone, although i have a few venevs on the way from hapstone. ive heard lots of great feedback about how hard the venev matrix is, and more that diemakers are a softer matrix which is where mine are at sort of. the stones ive come up with i started with a mix of silicon carbide and diamond probably a 40/60 mix. this was the very first attempt at a full "block" of abrasives, and the first time i really saw cool potential

https://flic.kr/p/2njfwas
https://flic.kr/p/2njfG73

but to be honest and its sad by comparison of diemakers, but the first attempt was just some sheared .80 aluminum with a heavy mix of diamond powder and the resin epoxy i use poured directly onto the blank, with a thick enough viscosity that it didnt run over the edge haha.

https://flic.kr/p/2nji8RT

i sat and tried to flatten the matrix of the aluminum stock ones and it was a terror. it really took forever because when you pour the mix down the diamonds, from under around 600 grit plus or minus sink to the bottom causing epoxy to rise to the top like this

https://flic.kr/p/2njfLwW

the 800-1000 grit and above i have used start to mix with the epoxy and stay in suspension in the mix, making it harder to throw in more diamonds in terms of weight into the mix. i didnt make or own a pressure pot but i bet that might work better for getting the diamonds to settle... for example, a 2.5" x 3.5" x .5" 320 grit diamond stone with as much diamond as i could mix before becoming clay like, weighs in at approx 173 grams. mainly diamond weight, where as a block with 800/1000 grit diamonds in the same format yet thicker approx 2.5 x 3.5 x .7 inches only weighs 150.8 grams.


to be continued
 
so, what i really realized after trying to flatten these aluminum blanks was i was mainly using a mix of a 120 gritomatic silicon carbide stone along with the 120 shapton karumaku or what not to flatten each other. the two 120s do a good job of keeping each other flat and cutting well, but i was getting nowhere, it took awhile to realize even tho stones cut steel well, pores of stones dont take well glazed with epoxy. duh. all this wasted effort to try and take down the epoxy.

lightbulb. put the matrix in a silicone mold and then just flatten the bottom diamond layer vs the top epoxy layer.

so my first attempt at this was the silicon carbide mix stones and it took alot less effort to get it where the whole face is lapped with 100 percent abrasive exposed. then i just ran the epoxy side over a belt sander to rough down and get rid of some epoxy.

https://flic.kr/p/2njgPf5
https://flic.kr/p/2njagHc
https://flic.kr/p/2njagEX
https://flic.kr/p/2njagTh

ive tried up to 10k with awesome results. all of them can be gouged but they are no where near as soft as one would imagine... the larger the grit size the harder to gouge in my experience... although i can put my stones up to a 10k on a k03 and because of the constant angle its almost impossible to gouge. id have to do a video at some point, just as diemake suggests edge trailing works best for freehanders unless you are well versed with the angles you hold. probably just 1 or two degrees above your burr edge leading can cause a gouge in my 800 grit and above... the 320 grit and lower you can go to town on at 50 degrees or 100 inclusive and it barely hurts the stone freehanded. so my goal of course is to end up with a hopefully home made matrix that will harden up the ability to edge lead hard angles into every stone without the risk of gouging. id just love to see others throw together some mixes that we could all benefit from. plus with epoxy being cheap in the sense that you barely use any to make a stone, and the fact that diamonds are dirt cheap with some online sources. its the time to experiment and have fun with all the resources.

hell one stone i made is like 70percent 10k diamond powder with 30 percent crox, i can take a low grit edge to almost a mirror with just two stones homemade. its pretty cool
 
Good stuff, thanks for sharing. I have spoken with others that have tried this as well. You may want to try increasing your ratio of abrasive to epoxy. I've heard from some of the other guys that this works much better. You can also add other materials as filler to adjust the abrasive content. The mix needs to be kneaded well and more or less about the consistency of mortar rather than pourable. This keeps the abrasive evenly distributed so it doesn't settle out. Once you have that, place the mix into a mold and press it tightly into the mold with a press or a fixture with screws or clamps pressing on a top plate, etc. and sometimes heat (depends on your resin, of course). Once it's set, as you mentioned, surface it to get it flat and expose abrasive. Changing the abrasive:binder ratio can change the effective "hardness" of the hone. Using different pressures on the press and different resins also. It takes some experimentation to find the sweet spot, of course.
 
eKretz said:
Good stuff, thanks for sharing. I have spoken with others that have tried this as well. You may want to try increasing your ratio of abrasive to epoxy. I've heard from some of the other guys that this works much better. You can also add other materials as filler to adjust the abrasive content. The mix needs to be kneaded well and more or less about the consistency of mortar rather than pourable. This keeps the abrasive evenly distributed so it doesn't settle out. Once you have that, place the mix into a mold and press it tightly into the mold with a press or a fixture with screws or clamps pressing on a top plate, etc. and sometimes heat (depends on your resin, of course). Once it's set, as you mentioned, surface it to get it flat and expose abrasive. Changing the abrasive:binder ratio can change the effective "hardness" of the hone. Using different pressures on the press and different resins also. It takes some experimentation to find the sweet spot, of course.
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thats exactly what i ended up doing at first on the aluminum .080 plates i mixed it so thick it didnt settle and it stayed way out of shape with mountains of diamond powder and never settled which was a problem for that method, but when i switched to the molds i threw as much diamond into the matrix as possible will still letting it settle as i learned if i used too much abrasive you could create air pockets and pitting throughout the stone. its one of those things u start to see as u do it a bit. theres definitely a sweet spot per say depending on what your doing, but i keep as much abrasive to resin as possible of course... ive tried various sized silicon carbide from 60 grit with 170 diamond powder up to 320 with 320 grit diamond powder. obviously the 60 with 170 was way off in size but the others cut fairly well and were harder per say but they werent much harder than the pure low grit diamond powder by itself, its the higher grit powder that stayed in suspension of the resin, but your right i need to try more like 800-1000 grit sic with the same diamond powder and same with 2300 grit. i just never had them to mix in. ive read a bit about all the binders people add to standard stones clay, ceramics and magnesia bonds but have yet to implement any of them of yet. im not sure about the press concept. that sounds like something for heavy machinery to fill the shoes off. i dont think a 3 ton arbor press would be even close to near the pressure but i could be way off. the idea seems hard at least like if i have 180 grams of mass or volume can you press that into a smaller figure in scale with home tools? honestly what ive made works fairly well, but id love to see others start mixing some stuff up too, ive debated doing the boron carbide powder as the sintered stones i have of boron are hella good soft steel cutters. hell i think you can get almost 2500 cts of powder for around 100 bucks shipped. i think 5k cts is about 1kg or 2.2lbs if that math is right. so 1.1lbs of powder that can make a shit ton of stone. im at about 15k cts of powder ive made into stone so far. i still fancy making some hella 50 grit cutters to just melt away some steel but i think cheapest i found was 300bucks for 1kg. it still sounds worth it for what i see these things can do. i have about 3k of 800/1000 and 2000/2300 and maybe 2k of 10,000 grit left i need to try and add other things to the binder. im afraid of one of the two falling out of suspension and settling as you had suggested. only one way to know. but what else would typically be added to something? like is copper powder or anything crazy like that added to create mass filler? i thought i might have come across a few other odd fillers....
 
The air pockets are one of the targets of the pressing. A good press can push the particles tightly together - it's not really about changing the density of the mix so much, just making sure it's tightly packed and hopefully free of air. The tighter the mix is pressed, the more tightly the abrasive particles can be squeezed together rather than leaving larger gaps between abrasive particles filled only with epoxy. Another possibility is vacuum degassing. One of the fillers I've heard about being used is diatomaceous earth. There are probably many others, another one of those things you'd have to experiment with...
 
Awesome Thread 3 311climber !

We need more of this type of discussion here.

I've been looking into making my own stones also, but can not find any real information from people who make them. It's one of those trade secrets that people don't want to share and unfortunately that means that the technology and ideas procrastinate. We need more of this information freely available and open to discussion and experimentation. The more we discuss this topic openly, the better for the whole sharpening community.

What type of resin have you tried?
 
A lot of the reason for why that information isn't more freely available is also because manufacturers make use of equipment that is typically beyond the reach of most consumers. There's a lot of fiddly fine-tuning that goes into the various processes and consumers would have a difficult time replicating the results with home-available equipment.

Very neat experiments, though, and it'll be interesting to see what you manage to accomplish.
 
This thread is very instructive. In one way, it reinforces the vast quantity of manufacturing knowledge with respect to a single product. Years and years of trial and error has given rise to the modern manufacture of stones. Now multiply that by the plethora of consumer and industrial products and you come to appreciate the generations upon generations of accumulated knowledge. This is my greatest fear arising from global trade: a country such as the USA losing this accumulated knowledge and the failure to transfer this to future generations. Just some thoughts.

Have fun and take notes 311climber. A very interesting thread!
 
eKretz said:
The air pockets are one of the targets of the pressing. A good press can push the particles tightly together - it's not really about changing the density of the mix so much, just making sure it's tightly packed and hopefully free of air. The tighter the mix is pressed, the more tightly the abrasive particles can be squeezed together rather than leaving larger gaps between abrasive particles filled only with epoxy. Another possibility is vacuum degassing. One of the fillers I've heard about being used is diatomaceous earth. There are probably many others, another one of those things you'd have to experiment with...
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i will read more about other fillers, and try to wander down a hole on reading about pressing if i can. i can only imagine the amount of time other men have put in just test after test with grinding compounds till a winning formula came about. i think i read from tspro website at this address, tspro abrasive bonds theres bonds like the b1-10 bond that contains copper and boron carbide etc. it was a nice read for laymen like me now im sure there are some processes we couldnt all do from our garage, but it sure seems like theres alot of potential there without big industrial equipment.
 
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777 Edge said:
Awesome Thread 3 311climber !

We need more of this type of discussion here.

I've been looking into making my own stones also, but can not find any real information from people who make them. It's one of those trade secrets that people don't want to share and unfortunately that means that the technology and ideas procrastinate. We need more of this information freely available and open to discussion and experimentation. The more we discuss this topic openly, the better for the whole sharpening community.

What type of resin have you tried?
Click to expand...
exactly, im not out for makers to come to us with those answers but yet if us normal makers are willing to talk and share experience then we could all learn a little more, plus hell its a good time to play around with them, ive got ones the size of tic tac containers ive used just as my smaller nagura type stones. they kill it for that. even took one of those little 1.25 inch blocks and mounted it to a blank for the k03 and was able to cut a beautiful edge into a knife or two. it was not as much fun doing little small circles with a small stone but it just cut the shit out of some steel. its like they never stop cutting and i normally dont refresh or lap anything ive made after the first time getting it ready for use... ive done it like 3 times at first as some people asthetically like a clean stone, but after i realized it cut without ever needing cleaning i stopped. ive tried mineral oil and i like water with some kind of wetting agent the best but even the 1000-2300 stones seem to turn jet black and u can just hear them continue to cut. of course its awesome seeing it just take down metal. sorry for the spiel it exciting to see others also want to make them, so far i have only used one resin and its the mas epoxy deep pour. its not the x version but the standard deep pour. i have the table top by them but i never did throw it into a batch. the first attempts worked so well i was like man i could use these as is to go from re beveling all the way to polish no problem. it would be really nice to be able to hit the 1000 plus with a 50 degree angle to the stone with a burr edge leading without digging in. when you gouge if you have alot of abrasive even when it cuts into the face it barely cuts down cause its truly fighting through pure diamond and epoxy as it digs. of course none of us are sharpening to 100 degree inclusive, and we could get by with what were talking about right now, it would be killer to make them handle a little better at hard angles to the stone. its also hard to know whats going on with the stone i did the mix on. its almost like the stone will start to glaze lightly from the Sic in the stone but keeps on cutting from the diamond surrounding the sic matrix. but im not sure thats as effective as pure diamonds. soon as you hit that certain soft steel....which technically is all i have anyways. im not doing this on super steels although my old man has been buying crazy good knives lately hes on a hinderer kick and just bought like 7 hinderer folders alone so its nice to know i can cut that hard steel even easier.

seemed like having a mix helped cut the softer steel faster, but its hard to really know cause even some of the crappy kitchen steels i sharpen would re profile way easier than the last. it also seems like it might slow down progress once you hit a certain steel the sic just starts to polish, but its hard to know because it definitely keeps cutting so maybe even the sic isnt truly burnishing.
 
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FortyTwoBlades said:
A lot of the reason for why that information isn't more freely available is also because manufacturers make use of equipment that is typically beyond the reach of most consumers. There's a lot of fiddly fine-tuning that goes into the various processes and consumers would have a difficult time replicating the results with home-available equipment.

Very neat experiments, though, and it'll be interesting to see what you manage to accomplish.
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see while the absolute best process maybe something most of us cant obtain without sending out to said companies, ive easily shown you can make your own stones at home without it and they work insanely well for how little of a process i actually put into it. so to dial that in would be nice, but your correct, well never really get things like sintering etc to probably happen at home. although that would be sweet cause id keep playing with those abilities haha.
 
Greggy said:
This thread is very instructive. In one way, it reinforces the vast quantity of manufacturing knowledge with respect to a single product. Years and years of trial and error has given rise to the modern manufacture of stones. Now multiply that by the plethora of consumer and industrial products and you come to appreciate the generations upon generations of accumulated knowledge. This is my greatest fear arising from global trade: a country such as the USA losing this accumulated knowledge and the failure to transfer this to future generations. Just some thoughts.

Have fun and take notes 311climber. A very interesting thread!
Click to expand...
yeah its all knowledge thats truly been tried already, but i mean if some of us could add copper and boron carbide to some epoxy with diamond powder with good results, id be happy still just a little closer to what is in my mind. im blown away by what we have learned and done with stones out there in the world. just from reading a few resin bonded diamond patents you can really see how far weve come and i cant imagine the time spent on these processes. truly inspiring in general, but i hope we never lose our ability to advance that general knowledge here in the states and or lose it to global production and time...
 
311climber said:
see while the absolute best process maybe something most of us cant obtain without sending out to said companies, ive easily shown you can make your own stones at home without it and they work insanely well for how little of a process i actually put into it. so to dial that in would be nice, but your correct, well never really get things like sintering etc to probably happen at home. although that would be sweet cause id keep playing with those abilities haha.
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Oh I'm not even talking about stuff like sintering. I mean just things like the kinds of presses or vibratory equipment, thermoset resins, specialized mixing equipment, etc. Even the molds that you've made require a decent amount of equipment or materials to put together. You're already dabbling at the fringes of the DIY realm compared to the industrial processes used for most kinds of stones. There's just a lot of R&D and tooling/equipment costs that make it cost MUCH more to start actually making a good abrasive product than is feasible for a single personal user compared to people who intend on recouping the cost of development through selling the resultant product. Hence the lack of availability of DIY info.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Oh I'm not even talking about stuff like sintering. I mean just things like the kinds of presses or vibratory equipment, thermoset resins, specialized mixing equipment, etc. Even the molds that you've made require a decent amount of equipment or materials to put together. You're already dabbling at the fringes of the DIY realm compared to the industrial processes used for most kinds of stones. There's just a lot of R&D and tooling/equipment costs that make it cost MUCH more to start actually making a good abrasive product than is feasible for a single personal user compared to people who intend on recouping the cost of development through selling the resultant product. Hence the lack of availability of DIY info.
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i understand. where i started this was just the fact that with two materials, resin and powder i was able to make a "stone" of sorts if you will. i dont have a edge pro version to compare, but for all i know my stone behaves similarly, or it doesnt. that part im not sure of as i havent used the product. but from what i read on the forums it sounded very similar to what i landed on, prefers edge trailing and can gouge, i might have mis read that, but i believe ive seen that in posts made by the maker of his product. i wouldnt say my process is really at the fringe but yes my abilities lack pushing past basic diy advancement. the most complicated thing seen is some silicone mix and i stuffed a few 1/2" thick bar stock alum. at a few different lengths in there. the other things you see are a fishing box i poured into and some containers from hobby lobby. so right now to do what i did you now need diamond powder, resin, and a plastic box of sorts. i fully agree r&d money and other equipment and specialty products will produce far greater result. im trying to see if what i made is totally usable for those who want to make something that still works very well. shit if someone wants ill send a small block to them and they can tell me how it feels vs a DP matrix stone. i am interested afterall. what ive done in my garage isnt fancy, wasnt complicated, but works surprisingly well or i wouldnt have wasted my time posting it honestly.
 
311climber said:
i understand. where i started this was just the fact that with two materials, resin and powder i was able to make a "stone" of sorts if you will. i dont have a edge pro version to compare, but for all i know my stone behaves similarly, or it doesnt. that part im not sure of as i havent used the product. but from what i read on the forums it sounded very similar to what i landed on, prefers edge trailing and can gouge, i might have mis read that, but i believe ive seen that in posts made by the maker of his product. i wouldnt say my process is really at the fringe but yes my abilities lack pushing past basic diy advancement. the most complicated thing seen is some silicone mix and i stuffed a few 1/2" thick bar stock alum. at a few different lengths in there. the other things you see are a fishing box i poured into and some containers from hobby lobby. so right now to do what i did you now need diamond powder, resin, and a plastic box of sorts. i fully agree r&d money and other equipment and specialty products will produce far greater result. im trying to see if what i made is totally usable for those who want to make something that still works very well. shit if someone wants ill send a small block to them and they can tell me how it feels vs a DP matrix stone. i am interested afterall. what ive done in my garage isnt fancy, wasnt complicated, but works surprisingly well or i wouldnt have wasted my time posting it honestly.
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It's absolutely worth doing it 3 311climber .

I won't be surprised if your stones give comparable end result to most other resin bonded stones. In the end, all that most resin stones are is a resin and abrasive of some sort.

It might be worth getting yourself a small vacuum pot, they aren't too expensive. That should sort out any bubbles inside the stones.

Keep experimenting, keep posting about your results and what you're using, and don't let any nay-sayers put you off!
 
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