Anyone ever consider the slightest lockbar looseness a "feature"

Joined
Aug 25, 2018
Messages
262
I've had CRKs with that infamous "bank vault" lock up. If I fidget with them long enough I can make my thumb sore from the constant unlocking of the tight lockup.

More recently I got a Shirogorov flipper and it is a whole different animal. The metal bits are a bit more thin and elegant. The result is my lock bar moves with pressure more easily. This was initially problematic on my NeOn Zero as the slightest touch to the lock bar while opening would prevent its opening. I've since trained my hand to not touch the lock bar when opening. With that said, the lock up always seemed secure. But more recently I noticed if I open my knife and still hold it without touching the lock bar there is actually a micro-meter or two of play in the blade. But the way the knife is designed, once you open it you either want to immediately close it (because it is a fidget) or you want to use it and your hand wraps around the scales. When doing the latter, the lock up immediately becomes firm resulting in no blade play because the slightest pressure on the lock bar immediately closes that 1 or 2 micrometer gap.

Upon this discovery my initial reaction was thinking I might want to bend in the lock bar by the slightest amount to tighten things up. But as I thought about it, I realized as much as I fidget with this knife, likely opening and closing it a few hundred times between each cut, those micrometers of space 1) likely reduce wear to lock bar insert/blade tang when I fidget 2) make the opening of the lock bar easier when I fidget.

Like I said, the really insignificant blade looseness took a month to even reveal itself to me, because every other time I would check the blade I would have a proper knife grip, not like I'm drinking tea in England. With any type of normal knife grip on this knife some part of the hand is touching the lock bar and the issue becomes moot. Anybody live with or prefer this situation, or would OCD drive you nuts and then you would feel compelled to "correct"?
 
I've had CRKs with that infamous "bank vault" lock up. If I fidget with them long enough I can make my thumb sore from the constant unlocking of the tight lockup.

More recently I got a Shirogorov flipper and it is a whole different animal. The metal bits are a bit more thin and elegant. The result is my lock bar moves with pressure more easily. This was initially problematic on my NeOn Zero as the slightest touch to the lock bar while opening would prevent its opening. I've since trained my hand to not touch the lock bar when opening. With that said, the lock up always seemed secure. But more recently I noticed if I open my knife and still hold it without touching the lock bar there is actually a micro-meter or two of play in the blade. But the way the knife is designed, once you open it you either want to immediately close it (because it is a fidget) or you want to use it and your hand wraps around the scales. When doing the latter, the lock up immediately becomes firm resulting in no blade play because the slightest pressure on the lock bar immediately closes that 1 or 2 micrometer gap.

Upon this discovery my initial reaction was thinking I might want to bend in the lock bar by the slightest amount to tighten things up. But as I thought about it, I realized as much as I fidget with this knife, likely opening and closing it a few hundred times between each cut, those micrometers of space 1) likely reduce wear to lock bar insert/blade tang when I fidget 2) make the opening of the lock bar easier when I fidget.

Like I said, the really insignificant blade looseness took a month to even reveal itself to me, because every other time I would check the blade I would have a proper knife grip, not like I'm drinking tea in England. With any type of normal knife grip on this knife some part of the hand is touching the lock bar and the issue becomes moot. Anybody live with or prefer this situation, or would OCD drive you nuts and then you would feel compelled to "correct"?
I would probably have mixed feelings about this. I like my knives to lockup tight whether I want to use it or not. However, I can see the benefit from a not so tight initial lockup since it would have to minimize unnecessary wear and tear on your lock bar. As far as correcting the potential issue, if you haven’t had or used the knife for very long, it may just need to be broken in.
 
I increase lockbar tension on most of my framelocks. I like heavy pressure, and I won't accept play in framelocks. That's one of the reasons why I was so disappointed in my Umnumzaan and in my current XM-18, which both had/have that slight lock play.
 
Try tightening down the pivot. I’ve read they work lose on Shirogorovs and that could cause your play.

If that happened on a work knife I would have a big problem with it. But on a Shiro, which to my mind is more a fiddle and fun knife, it wouldn’t bother me at all. It isn’t going to keep it from flicking and safely opening Amazon boxes.
 
Anybody live with or prefer this situation, or would OCD drive you nuts and then you would feel compelled to "correct"?

Intellectually, I know that if the lockup is secure and there's a tiny bit of play then it's not actually a problem. But up in the rare air of this knife's price point (I've never owned a Shiro, but I've owned a few knives that approach that price range) this sort of wiggle does bother me.

I can't un-feel it, and it starts me down a path of wondering why Knife X is so expensive if it doesn't have tolerances as tight, and fit and finish as perfect, as lower-cost knives in my collection. I feel your post in my heart. :(

Edited to add: On the flipside, if I really try to muscle blade play out of a knife it's incredibly rare for there not to be some minuscule amount of movement. At that point is it blade play, or is it just the inherent physics of two adjoining surfaces always having a little bit of wiggle room at the point of contact? The more knives I own, and the longer I collect them, the more I'm starting to see it from the latter perspective.
 
Last edited:
Even though a small amount of blade play, back and forth as well as side to side, doesn t affect function in my work knives, the play implies a certain lack of long term strength. I have knives relatively reasonably priced that lock up tightly after years of use. Those are my standard for fit and finish.
 
That’s why I don’t like early lock up. Even with solid early lock up, I won’t use the spine for scraping or any other tasks that the edge doesn’t need to do. I’ve got a couple Shirogorov’s that I use for work knives. They’re for cutting only, now, the Umnumzaan is a great scraper with the false edge.
As with any new knife with a frame/liner lock, IMO, there is a break in period for the lock/blade to settle in and stay in position. The problem I’ve had with adjusting a lock bar is that it may create lock stick if that sweet spot is over corrected, then you have to undo the efforts. For me, it’s too much of a PIA and not worth it.
If it’s really bad, I’d send it in or get rid of it.
 
I increase lockbar tension on most of my framelocks. I like heavy pressure, and I won't accept play in framelocks. That's one of the reasons why I was so disappointed in my Umnumzaan and in my current XM-18, which both had/have that slight lock play.

My Zaans are rock-solid.
 
As with any new knife with a frame/liner lock, IMO, there is a break in period for the lock/blade to settle in and stay in position. /QUOTE]


My older CRK's (have had MANY) have never moved on the lockbar. Current production Sebbies (I have a large 21) are also noted to be sold with a lockbar position of 80% nominal, which doesn't move under normal use.
I will not own a framelock without rock-solid lockup. Zero wiggle; zero lock-rock.
 
Feature? No.

I don’t yank on a blade like it owes me money to test blade play, so if a knife has ANY at all, I get rid of it. Period. It’s one thing I absolutely will not tolerate.
 
I've had CRKs with that infamous "bank vault" lock up. If I fidget with them long enough I can make my thumb sore from the constant unlocking of the tight lockup.

More recently I got a Shirogorov flipper and it is a whole different animal. The metal bits are a bit more thin and elegant. The result is my lock bar moves with pressure more easily. This was initially problematic on my NeOn Zero as the slightest touch to the lock bar while opening would prevent its opening. I've since trained my hand to not touch the lock bar when opening. With that said, the lock up always seemed secure. But more recently I noticed if I open my knife and still hold it without touching the lock bar there is actually a micro-meter or two of play in the blade. But the way the knife is designed, once you open it you either want to immediately close it (because it is a fidget) or you want to use it and your hand wraps around the scales. When doing the latter, the lock up immediately becomes firm resulting in no blade play because the slightest pressure on the lock bar immediately closes that 1 or 2 micrometer gap.

Upon this discovery my initial reaction was thinking I might want to bend in the lock bar by the slightest amount to tighten things up. But as I thought about it, I realized as much as I fidget with this knife, likely opening and closing it a few hundred times between each cut, those micrometers of space 1) likely reduce wear to lock bar insert/blade tang when I fidget 2) make the opening of the lock bar easier when I fidget.

Like I said, the really insignificant blade looseness took a month to even reveal itself to me, because every other time I would check the blade I would have a proper knife grip, not like I'm drinking tea in England. With any type of normal knife grip on this knife some part of the hand is touching the lock bar and the issue becomes moot. Anybody live with or prefer this situation, or would OCD drive you nuts and then you would feel compelled to "correct"?
It is not uncommon in Shiro's for the lock bar to move further into engagement with some external pressure. I actually do find that interesting, but have not felt the lockup was in any way insecure. The engagement is really, really smooth on my 95NL, suggesting some really fine tolerances and surface "texture" (or lack thereof).
 
… so I maybe just did a bad thing. I added a slight more bend to the lock bar. The result:
  • "bank vault" lock up - definitely no wiggle anywhere
  • Very strong detent - no half-deployments are going to be happening here
  • Now I have to put the same amount of effort to unlock this lock bar as I do my CRKs
The value of my knife as a "fidget" has just decreased. The feel of my knife as a real tool has increased.
Maybe it will re-break-in from here? Because of the press-fit lock bar stop it does not appear I can undo what I just did.
 
Every CRK I've owned (I own 5), all bought new from between 2002-2016, have had solid, flawless lockup. And even my oldest, hardest-used one has maintained the same lockup. The only CRK that made my thumb sore if I had to unlock it too many times was my 2011 Umnumzaan, but not because of the tight lockup, but because of the 'bump' design on the lockbar. And none of them has developed any play over the years, either.

Jim
 
… so I maybe just did a bad thing. I added a slight more bend to the lock bar. The result:
  • "bank vault" lock up - definitely no wiggle anywhere
  • Very strong detent - no half-deployments are going to be happening here
  • Now I have to put the same amount of effort to unlock this lock bar as I do my CRKs
The value of my knife as a "fidget" has just decreased. The feel of my knife as a real tool has increased.
Maybe it will re-break-in from here? Because of the press-fit lock bar stop it does not appear I can undo what I just did.
In my mind you just fixed it.
 
In my mind you just fixed it.
After playing around with my adjusted knife for a few hours, I think I agree with you. The detent is definitely stronger than before, but manageable... probably will need to keep my fidget flips now under 100 per day to keep my forefinger from getting sore. Unlocking the lock bar has been manageable, actually now seems easier than a few hours ago. Definitely no lock-stick. And this knife is now SOLID.

If one were to look at this Zero tang, it is angled about 75% across, then levels out. So the possible lock interface is up to ~75% across the tang. Whereas before I had about 15% of that 75% locked up, but could push in across most of the 75%, now about 50% of the 75% is locked up and with modest pressure my bar now does not push in any further. Thanks marrenmiller about the idea of increasing lock-bar tension. It appears that was the culprit. This knife was so smooth and easy to open and close... but it just wasn't right. This knife just went from toy to tool.
 
Back
Top