Anyone had experience with Phoenix Hammers and their customer service?

M

mgysgthath

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Dec 15, 2009
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Edit: Looks like they cost over 20 grand, so pretty irrelevant for my budget. I can't seem to change the post title though. Thanks again to Don for his advice.

http://phoenixhammer.com/

Twice from different email addresses I wrote them asking questions and never once did I get a reply. Three times I think actually. Simple questions such as how large an air compressor would be required etc.. CFM tank size.. pretty straight forward question for someone selling pneumatic hammers, yes? No answer.

Shipping/freight charge questions, especially internationally? No answer.

I'm still torn between power hammers and hydraulic presses.. of course I want both ! :D The upside to a press is mosaic damascus and not needing to reinforce the floor it's standing on. But I digress.

Just curious if anyone has had dealings with them.. the hammers themselves look excellent, especially the clamp function.
 
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They've changed hands a couple times and I've heard they're not great to communicate with. Might try a phone call?

I'm still torn between power hammers and hydraulic presses.. of course I want both ! The upside to a press is mosaic damascus and not needing to reinforce the floor it's standing on. But I digress.
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As far as mosaic is concerned, I'd much rather use a power hammer and do.

Also, it is best to, but no need to reinforce your floor for hammers under 100 lbs.
 
Thank you Don. I actually just got through perusing your website and shop tour, I am envious! I did a bit of googling and found out their 150 lbs hammer is around $21,000.. which is far out of my price range anyway. Thank you for the advice on the hammer vs press.. why do you feel the hammer is better for mosaic?
 
If you're main reason for getting a press *or* hammer is for damascus work, then believe me, a press is much more useful IMHO.

I have an air hammer made by the same guy that makes the Pheonix hammers (a 75lb Bull), and while it's certainly the more "fun" of the two tools, if I had to choose between it and a forging press I'd choose the press. I've been working on a press build for a while myself, but have used a very nice one extensively for the past year making tons of damascus.

Ideally, you'd like both, we do our drawing with a big self contained air hammer, but you can easily do that with drawing dies on a press.


Anyway, as to the original question, the Pheonix hammer guys are notoriously impossible to get in touch with, and supposedly have insane wait times, even if you can get in touch with them. Even to us locals in Asheville, the word is you just have to luck by catching them when they're at the shop.


My friend has an Ironkiss (75lber), and if I had to buy a new hammer, that's definitely where I'd be looking for a utility hammer. The control is phenomenal, and they seem to be less air hungry. I've been really wanting to pick up one myself, but it just seems redundant. Big toys can quickly become and unhealthy addiction.

Basically though, regardless of which utility hammer you get, you're going to need a minimum of about 15scfm @ 125psi. So be looking at a high end dual stage 5hp 80gal at a minimum, and that excludes things like the regular contractor brands (Husky, Porter Cable, Kobalt, Campbell hausfeld), because they don't have the air delivery capabilities, although you might get by with light work on one of those to start.

I'm using an Ingersoll Rand T30 dual stage 5hp on my Bull, and it's fine for "1 iron in the fire" type work, but running it full tilt definitely keeps the compressor charging. I picked up another so I'm probably going to run them in tandem, that I imagine will be way more than enough air. If I had bought new, I would definitely have gone with a 7.5 or 10hp Ingersoll, Quincy, Saylor Bealle, etc.
 
Just wanted to add that I personally almost *NEVER* use the clamping function of my hammer, even though it was a feature I was excited about also. It's not nearly as good as the post vise, the only thing I've found it handy for is basic bending or straightening of long objects, but it's highly specific. You have to not mind texturing or intending what you're bending/straightening with the initial blow, etc. Maybe with some specific dies it could be adapted to specific tasks, but I don't use it much. I'm also reasonably certain that the Ironkiss does clamping also.
 
Thanks Javand.. I also came across the Ironkiss hammers just now, and they are definitely where I'd go as well. But my initial thought was what you said, the hammers while more fun are not quite as useful as a press. It's good to see both opposing viewpoints as well. The CFM requirements Ironkiss lists are a little lower than your estimates.. but still it's a large cost to factor in to one, of course. Damascus would not be the ONLY function, but definitely the main reason for wanting one. Right now I have a 20 ton pneumatic bottle jack and a homemade press based on it that I'm going to try. It's pretty slow though, that's the main problem, and not fit for large billets. Thanks :)
 
Another bullhammer owner here ... I've aso had some difficulty getting in touch with the makers of these machines. I like the hammer, got it used for like $2500 which was hard to turn down, but if I were buying new I'm not sure I'd buy one of these.

Regarding compressors, I actually found the guys at Big Blue extremely helpful. Always answered the phone on the first coupe of rings and never too busy to answer my questions. I ended up buying an 80 gallon 5hp ingersoll rand from them and agree with javand that this would pretty much be the minimum you'd want.

Good luck, whatever you do
 
Thanks Wulf, and everyone. I think what I'll do is look at presses and perhaps building my own from the CAD drawings I saw posted here not long ago, or some other plans. Of course maybe my $100 bottle jack will do the trick for now.. I'm going to experiment with that first. I'll post my first damascus if it turns out :P
 
I started making damascus by hand. Far too slow IMO but hey you got to learn somehow.
I then moved to a junkyard hammer, more specifically the spare tire hammer 50lber by Ray Klontz.
Lastly I recently purchased a Big blue 155. I got to admit the big blue I am very happy with.
When I start a billet it is 1.5" wide and 1.5 " tall at 9 layers. I can usually flatten my billet to .3 thick in 4-5 heats. I have never used a press
but from the videos I have watched they seem to be much slower than using a Hammer. Someone correct me if I am wrong, I do feel a press is more versatile
though. But if speed is what you are after maybe a hammer is what you need.
CW
 
Thanks CW. I too plan to do it by hand, because I doubt the bottle jack will help a lot. My idea is to use it for the initial weld, then draw it out by hand from there, because there's no way it's fast enough to draw with. I've seen some pretty fast presses though, I think it depends on how they're built. Ed Caffrey's dvd shows him drawing out a billet in 3-4 heats with the press.. he goes back and forge between the press and hammer, but I don't think its entirely necessary, more convenient.
I actually bought plans for a Tire Hammer from Ray Clontz as well, but when you receive it, it lets you in on the little tidbit of info that you need a milling machine and lathe to complete the build. If I could afford those, I wouldn't have to build my own :P
 
mgysgthath said:
Thank you Don. I actually just got through perusing your website and shop tour, I am envious! I did a bit of googling and found out their 150 lbs hammer is around $21,000.. which is far out of my price range anyway. Thank you for the advice on the hammer vs press.. why do you feel the hammer is better for mosaic?
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A power hammer isn't better for mosaics, just faster and more fun for me. :) There was an old rumor that one couldn't make mosaics without a press. ;)

If I were buying a new air hammer today, I'd be lookin hard at the Say Mak and Iron Kiss. Ive run several Say Mak hammers and they are fine machines, I really like the self contained design. Tom Clark really did his homework here and he is missed. The Iron kiss has a solid reputation and I have not heard anything bad about them.

That said, I love Little Giant hammers and have three of em. They're the only hammers I want or need in my shop. :)
 
We own a #50LG and love it, one of these days Ill have a #250 LG if possible..Hammers are so much more than just a "hammer" when you start using tools...Ive also used a press but for our needs a hammer is much more useful and versatile.
 
Yeah if you're considering a self contained, which can't be beat for the power (my experience is that they all hit in one or two weight classes higher than their tup weight), then the Say Maks seem to be a great deal, the more recent Anyangs seem to have great reps also, even if they had a bumpy start. I work on a (I think) 88lb Striker all the time, and it hits as hard as a 155 big blu, with insanely good control. Admittedly, I think my 75lb (original style, which has an actual tup weight of more like 100lbs) Bull hits just about as hard, it doesn't have the control of the Striker or the Ironkiss hammers. Although I got it used, and have had to tinker with the controls quite a bit to get it working the way I expect it, so there's probably more to be done to dial it in.


The big issue with self-contained hammers is that you definitely start wanting to consider shoring up the foundation, although we've run the Striker on a thick cement pad (garage) without doing any damage to it. I want a self contained hammer real bad, but since I rent, I'm happy that my Bull is in the sub-1,000lb range, which doesn't need anything other than to be siliconed or bolted down to a pad, or even a stack of railroad ties or logs buried in the ground, and can easily be manhandled with a ratchet strap or come-a-long and a digging bar by myself, and I won't have to spend anything to transport it when I move to another house.

After seeing the press build on casters, I'm really leaning toward trying to replicate that design myself.

Also, as mentioned, some presses are very fast, it just depends on the design. With the right dies, we can draw a billet out faster on the press than the hammer with general crowned dies. Although with aggressive drawing dies, the hammer would probably be faster, but not so good for flattening unless they're combo dies. That's another great thing about a press, you can change the dies out in seconds versus minutes or more.
 
Honestly I'm not picky at this point, ANY power hammer is a good one to me, as long as it works and a spring doesn't snap and kill me :P Thanks Don for the reply.. My only thought about press vs hammer for mosaic would be keeping everything square and flat might be easier.. but I've never experienced either, just seen videos, so I defer to the experts on this one. I think I'll muddle along until something drops into my lap.. seems like people are holding on to theirs, or there just aren't many in Ontario. I've been searching a bit and found nothing, just people recommending I build my own, which I may have to.
 
I started with a worn out 25lb LG in the mid 90s', after forging a couple damascus billets by hand. The 25 was great, after a rebuild. But everybody said I needed a press, so I got one and it was great. Bout 1998 my forging world turned completely around when I got my first 100 lb LG, it just about made the press obsolete. Been forging mosaics with the 100 ever since and can keep billets square with it, especially powder can billets. I do use the press for the first welds on bar stock billets, it welds very good and doesn't spray flux all over the shop.

Hank Knickmeyer and the other early damascus masters have said for years, all that's needed is a 25 lb LG and a press. But they've all moved on to big hammers. Big hammers are just a lot of fun! :)
 
Yes, a press is slow, unless you have a HUGE press like Kyle Royer and some others do. I have had the chance to use both a Big Blu and a Say Mak once each. If I had the cash, I would probably buy the Say Mak just from my limited experience forging out a couple of 2 inch rounds of W2. The two hammers were rated at the same tup weight and the Say Mak just seemed to hit harder.
 
Interesting.. I failed to consider the bigger hammers, they'd also have a bigger flat surface so it should be easier keeping things square too. Thanks for all the input everyone. I'm still not in the price range to afford something like that, I have about $4000 sitting around for something but I think I should experiment first and see where I can get by hand and with home made stuff before spending a bunch on something I have no experience with. Thanks all.
 
jdm61 said:
Yes, a press is slow, unless you have a HUGE press like Kyle Royer and some others do. I have had the chance to use both a Big Blu and a Say Mak once each. If I had the cash, I would probably buy the Say Mak just from my limited experience forging out a couple of 2 inch rounds of W2. The two hammers were rated at the same tup weight and the Say Mak just seemed to hit harder.
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Yep Joe, the Say Mak hits harder the the Blue and a 100 LG hits harder than both. :D
mgysgthath said:
Interesting.. I failed to consider the bigger hammers, they'd also have a bigger flat surface so it should be easier keeping things square too. Thanks for all the input everyone. I'm still not in the price range to afford something like that, I have about $4000 sitting around for something but I think I should experiment first and see where I can get by hand and with home made stuff before spending a bunch on something I have no experience with. Thanks all.
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$4000? Lots of Little Giants south of ya selling for less than that. That'll just about get ya a rebuilt 50 lb straight from Little Giant. I also see 100 lb LGs for that or less? Just saying...
 
Probably Don, but the problem is availability.. Freight shipping from the US is going to be insane, plus the border fees etc. What I have to do is ask around to see if there are any good Canadian suppliers, and go from there. But I agree, building a press is probably my best bet for now.
 
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