Arc Lock failure rate -- any stats?

F

Full Tang Clan

Joined
Jul 22, 2000
Messages
981
A thread at the main forum had to do with a competitor's bolt action type lock (we all know the company) where there seems to be intermittent failure due to regular wear and tear on the springs.

Has SOG done any research to determine the expectant life span on the springs for the Arc Lock? Have they done any direct comparisons against their competitors?

What is the expected lifespan of the springs in SOG's version of the bolt action type lock.
 
I have a SOG Pentegon Elite which has seen much use on my part and never had any problems with the Arc-Lock mechanism. I also own a full sized X-Ray Vision and a Mini X-Ray Vision and have confidence in the Arc-Lock. As with all things mechanical, there may be a day when something goes wrong, but that's what a lifetime warranty is for. If it's defective, SOG will fix it. The same can be said about most of the established cutlery brands. If it's defective, send it back and the manufacturer will make it right.

As for the expected lifespan of the springs in SOG's Arc-Locks, I would think that it depends on how much wear and tear you give the knife. If you're the type that is really hard on knives to the point of abuse, then mechanical problems may arrive sooner. Still, if any of my knives develop a defect regardless of the brand, I will send it back to the manufacturer for repair rather than tinkering with it and run the risk of further damaging my knife.
 
Originally posted by el cid
As with all things mechanical, there may be a day when something goes wrong, but that's what a lifetime warranty is for. If it's defective, SOG will fix it. The same can be said about most of the established cutlery brands. If it's defective, send it back and the manufacturer will make it right.

As for the expected lifespan of the springs in SOG's Arc-Locks, I would think that it depends on how much wear and tear you give the knife. If you're the type that is really hard on knives to the point of abuse, then mechanical problems may arrive sooner. Still, if any of my knives develop a defect regardless of the brand, I will send it back to the manufacturer for repair rather than tinkering with it and run the risk of further damaging my knife.
Click to expand...

Well put! I have a couple of Arc locks and just love them. I have also taken them apart..:rolleyes: I think that properly maintained, they will last you a lifetime.
 
I have a Ti Vision and have owned 3 other pieces in the Vision series.

While the concept is the similar, I think the SOG is an entirely different animal so it may not be comparing apples to apples, more like comparing Gala Rome's to Granny Smith's. I've had both a BM and a SOG apart before but it's been a year or so for the Vision so the differences escape me.

While we're at it, another hotly debated point in the same thread was whether or not the company should send parts out to users willing to pay for them.

Ron, would SOG send me a back spacer for my Ti Vision if I had taken it apart and broken the piece in the process? Or would you require me to send it in?

The question is not directed to you to put SOG in a bad light regardless of your answer, it's more my contention that any or most manufacturers would ask that you send the knife to them for repair and not just drop a back spacer in the mail.
 
that would be a good idea for the mechanically inclined AND a LOT cheaper for both parties involved. money saved on shipping to SOG, money saved in the recieving department(labor costs), money saved in the repair department(again, labor costs), money saved on return shipping, and the knife is repaired a lot faster...
good idea:)
 
Originally posted by el cid
As with all things mechanical, there may be a day when something goes wrong, but that's what a lifetime warranty is for.
Click to expand...

I do accept that products wear out, and I appreciate cutlery companies' lifetime warranties to an extent -- although by "Lifetime" we're assuming the company will be in business forever.

But LIFETIME WARRANTIES are not the be all and end all. It is as much a marketing angle as it is a service and is not an acceptable substitute for a quality product or service IMO.

Not to mention, it is still a big hassle and expense having to ship a knife (especially if one lives outside the U.S.) insured, wait for the turnaround time, pay for the return shipping, risk having the knife lost or stolen in the mail system, etc., etc.

Wouldn't it make more sense for a knife company to just have their parts supplier make a more robust spring rather than leaning on a Lifetime Warranty as a crutch? Just hypothetically speaking and has no bearing on SOG products.

Also, yes, wear is dependent on the individual user. However, I'm talking about quantitavely measuring it through random sampling. Like saying, "The SOG Vision averages X plus or minus some standard deviation openings and closings before one of the springs fail."

I'm just wondering if SOG has done such said tests, or whether they keep track of returns due to spring breakages.
 
I think the reason why most manufacturers would prefer that you send the knife in for service is because of liability issues. I know lots of people who own good knives, but are not mechanically inclined and would probably make a mess by taking a knife apart and reassembling it. What would happen if the manufacturer sends you a replacement spring and you install it yourself, but then the lock fails on you because you did not reassemble the knife correctly and you end up with a severe injury? In today's society where lawsuits run rampant, who wants to risk being liable? As knife enthusiasts, most of us would admit negligence on our part, but what about the rest of the public?

I know there are lots of people here in the forum who disassemble their knives for cleaning or other maintenance, I'm one of them, but there are too many people out there who are just plain stupid and will try to sue given the opportunity. Remember the lady who sued McDonald's years ago because she burned herself with hot coffee? Notice why the cups now have a warning that the contents may be hot? Another example is when you buy a pair of shoes, the boxes contain those little packets of Silica. They have a warning which read "Do Not Eat." You may ask yourself, who would be stupid enough to eat something found in a shoe box? Believe me, there are people stupid enough. If something happens to them, they'll sue. :rolleyes:

Of all the knives I've bought and used in the last 7 years (there have been lots of them), I've only had to send 2 to the manufacturer for service due to defects. The cost of shipping was of no concern because I really wanted my knives to function well. They were knives I really liked and enjoyed using so I sent them to the manufacturers and got them fixed. I still have them and they operate without any problems. I can see being able to order a pocket clip or new screws or even handle scales from the manufacturer, but when you're dealing with a locking mechanism, it's best to let the manufacturer deal with it.

Some people complain about the hassle of having deal with the cost of shipping and the chance that their knife may be lost or stolen in transit. That's the postal service, not the manufacturer's call. If I spend my hard earned money on a knife and it is defective, you bet I'm going to send it to the manufacturer. I'll send it insured and overight delivery if I have to. Besides, would you really buy a knife that came without any type of warranty?
 
el cid, well said and my thoughts exactly.
 
Originally posted by el cid
Some people complain about the hassle of having deal with the cost of shipping and the chance that their knife may be lost or stolen in transit. That's the postal service, not the manufacturer's call. If I spend my hard earned money on a knife and it is defective, you bet I'm going to send it to the manufacturer. I'll send it insured and overight delivery if I have to. Besides, would you really buy a knife that came without any type of warranty?
Click to expand...

...But I wouldn't have to be sending it back in the first place if it were better constructed to begin with! That's my argument.

Sorry if I sound abrupt but some of you guys just don't get it.

Give me a well built product AND a Lifetime Warranty and I'm happy, rather than using the warranty as a crutch, or insurance.

Warranties are like insurance. I could have a great earthquake insurance policy on my house but I sure as hell don't wanna cash in on it because it means I have to live through a catastrophe to do it! Okay, this is an extreme example, but I'm just trying to point out that Lifetime Warranties are mutually exclusive from whether a product is built well.

Warranties are hind sights for AFTER things go wrong. Good companies are proactive and PREVENT things from going wrong from the start. Example: build a more robust Omega spring!

Unless you've studied business management, or looked at ISO 9001 organizational standards, some of you guys are probably still shaking your heads and wondering "What the hell is FTC talking about?"
 
i know what you are talking about. i bought an emerson mini commander in left hand for FULL retail. it "squeaked" when it opened, the travel was not smooth and the blade was "tight" i called emerson and they said to send it back with a note and they would take care of the problem. ARE YOU KIDDING! they charged $15 to ship one knife, i paid retail $169, because i had it custom built(left hand), now send it back(another shipping charge, hope they get it right THIS TIME, then pay their enormous shipping fee AGAIN? NO WAY!!! i disassembled it and rebuilt it myself, the RIGHT way. i will NEVER buy another emerson. i could see if it was one off the production line, but a "hand built" knife should NEVER leave a factory that functioned like this knife. all of the SOG knives i have are a LOT smoother opening right out of the box and cost a LOT LESS. i had to smooth out the pivot areas with a stone and the "lock" they use to keep the blade in the handle was WAY too tight. i am going to have to adjust that spring too. all of the SOG's i have just needed oiling and adjusting the pivot screw(i adjst EVERYTHING i buy to suit my personal needs), this is normal for me, NOT having to rebuild a knife COMPLETELY...
 
Originally posted by Full Tang Clan
Sorry if I sound abrupt but some of you guys just don't get it.

....

some of you guys are probably still shaking your heads and wondering "What the hell is FTC talking about?"
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but I don't think you get it.

I would really like to know what folding knife you own that you know will never need to take advantage of a lifetime warranty? (please provide the complete list because my wife just asked me what I want for Christmas)

What you are basically saying is that even though companies offer a warranty the knife should never break, not only one knife should ever break, but any more than 3-4 in the span of thousands and there is a manufacturing flaw.

You can talk business/ISO/Org standards all day long and if you go to a manufacturer and tell them they have to make a product that will never need to be sent in for warranty they're going to respectfully tell you to go fly a kite.
 
The point of the ISO 9001 (and QS-9000 and TS-16949, etc.) is to ensure that there are systems in place to address design review, etc. ad nauseum....

It's easy to tell SOG to build a more robust "Omega spring"... BUT, would it be feasible? Have you taken one apart and studied the workings? If you overbuild the spring, the lock action will become too stiff. Besides, if you look at the spring function it is strictly to center the locking release mechanism. The amount of spring travel is relatively small. Without going into mathematical calculations, the amount of "wear" on the spring should not be significant. As long as the spring is properly made, it should easily stand up to a lifetime of normal use...

Has SOG done the statistical testing? I wouldn't know :confused:, but what would make more sense is to do "Test to failure" on the whole knife. That would identify the weakest areas of design, be it the spring or something else.

Send me one of each knife, and I will begin life testing them all.

:D
 
I'll post here when I have a bit more time. My post in this thread took me the past six hours. I should be into work most of tomorrow.

You guys can keep the discussion going without me! :)
 
Originally posted by cpirtle
I'm sorry but I don't think you get it.

I would really like to know what folding knife you own that you know will never need to take advantage of a lifetime warranty? (please provide the complete list because my wife just asked me what I want for Christmas)

What you are basically saying is that even though companies offer a warranty the knife should never break, not only one knife should ever break, but any more than 3-4 in the span of thousands and there is a manufacturing flaw.

You can talk business/ISO/Org standards all day long and if you go to a manufacturer and tell them they have to make a product that will never need to be sent in for warranty they're going to respectfully tell you to go fly a kite.
Click to expand...

No, that's not what I'm saying cpirtle. You're taking my words out of context. Where did I say a product SHOULD NEVER break? Point it out and I'll give you one of my knives (your choice). I'm not that stupid or naive to think that.

Waynejitsu understands. If my explanations are too convoluted for you, read his post and you'll see an example of what I'm talking about.

I'm saying companies (whether they make knives, cars, widgets, condoms...) should take a proactive approach through quality management, and quality assurance, to insure more reliable products and minimize "stinkers" that come off the line. That way, it would minimize product failures and at least reduce the number of consumers the hassle of having to make a warranty claim. In laymen terms: good input = good output. Conversely garbage in = garbage out. THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING albeit in a superfluous chain of logic.

From a consumer viewpoint, I'm saying it's a hassle for us to have to send our products in for repair regardless of whether we have to pay for servicing or it's under a warranty. It still costs time and money. That's all I'm saying about that.

I apologize if the ISO "this and that" was distracting to you but it gets really frustrating for me when I have to keep repeating myself over and over again either because people selectively read only certain passages and form perverted generalizations of what I'm trying to say, or worse, read things into it that aren't there.

CONCLUSION:

Good warranties are great. But I'd like to have to use them as little as possible. I'm sure you would too.

I want to reiterate, I'm talking hypothetically and this is not a reflection on SOG products which I've found reliable.

RON@SOG:

My original intention was to find out if SOG has tested their arclocks for a life-span, and whether there have been similar spring breakages like your competitor(s). Boy, did this question take the long way around or what? :grumpy:
 
FTC, this argument is going no where.

What you don't seem to understand is that finding 10 or 12 people on Bladeforums that have had broken Omega Springs does not require Benchmade to re-engineer the spring.

I can find 10-12 people that have SERE 2000 with blade play, or that fail the spine whack test. I can probably find 100 people with a compression lock that has blade play.

Get frustrated all you want but the next time you start trying to tell people that they are not as knowledgeable as you in manufacturing and that's why they don't understand, you may want to know your audience a little better.

All companies have "Stinkers" come off of the line, why are you holding them to a higher standard than everyone else?

And coming here to ask Ron for statistics on broken Arc Locks is not a fair comparison either because you do not have true statistics on how many Omega Springs BM loses.

In the end, we'll just have to agree to disagree, I'm not going to keep bickering with you and could care less if we see eye to eye on the issue.

What Wayne mentioned is unfortunate, but happens on many production folders. Ever heard the statement that it "must have been made on a Friday"? Every company lets a lemon go by, but I can find a thousand Emerson owers who's knife was perfect right out of the box.

Wayne, if I stopped buying from every company that ever sent me a lemon I would not have anyone left to buy from (that's a 100% fact, and I have bought from all of the big names at one time or another). I would give Emerson another shot before coming to the conclusion you did.
 
cpirtle,
i came to that conclusion because it was NOT a knife off the "production line". it was custom ordered, custom "hand" built(from what i was told at ordering time), that is why i had to pay almost double "street price". i would understand if it was off the production line, as you mentioned, everyone has lemons, HOWEVER, when ordering a knife(or anything else), paying a PREMIUM for work that is a "special" order, THEN getting a lemon is a bit much IMO. that is what i thought custom orders were, custom, attention to detail and hand built(in this case), not to mention again, being charged a premium for work i did not recieve.

get me once, shame on you,
get me twice, shame on me.

i would just assume let this thread die out. i will not change my mind on this issue, no matter how many other people had good service from emerson. i am not saying they are not good knives, what i am saying is they are(at least in my case)NOT worth the money. there are other knife companies out there that make a product as well or better for a LOT less money and they are just "production line" knives not CUSTOM ordered at a PREMIUM cost...
 
Hi Guys,
Originally posted by Full Tang Clan
A thread at the main forum had to do with a competitor's bolt action type lock (we all know the company) where there seems to be intermittent failure due to regular wear and tear on the springs.

Has SOG done any research to determine the expectant life span on the springs for the Arc Lock? Have they done any direct comparisons against their competitors?

What is the expected lifespan of the springs in SOG's version of the bolt action type lock.
Click to expand...
I hate to do this to you, but I'll address this first question and at a later time, address anything else. I didn't want this thread to go unanswered for another day. Between being sick and working 9 hours today (I'm at home, now...but getting ready for an evening out with the wife) and still not having time ... all I can say is, "Sorry!"

I know there have been some tense words spoken here, but I've not carefully read this whole thread. Please ... everyone ... play nicely! :)

This is the only published technical information on SOG's ArcLock from SOG. We have no "published" longterm testing results.

I will go "on the record" and talk about what I've seen in warranty returns. Basically NOTHING is what I've seen. No problems. No reoccuring issues. And the ArcLock has been out for about 2.5 years. Certainly long enough for people to start to have problems. The only primary reason I've seen for the ArcLock to come back is when the knife has been disassembled by the customer and parts lost or reassembled wrongly. That isn't the manufacturer's fault (unless the fault is that we've made something "fun" enough to take apart).

Ask more questions and talk somemore (nicely!). I'll be back in here Sunday or Monday. Thanks for your patience.
 
RON@SOG,

Sorry I don't mean to get you in the middle of a crossfire. I apologize for anything to have made you, and other forumites, feel uneasy.

Cpirtle,

How can we be disagreeing on something when I have yet to disagree with, or refute, anything you have said? You're the one throwing out the "barbs". I'm just expanding and justifying my position because I perceive that you do not comprehend it.

I'm getting curt because I'm being misinterpreted and misquoted by you. Example: you accuse me of saying "products should never break" but you can't even point that quote out or anything close. You'd be ticked off too if someone accused you of saying something you never said.

In addition, I never said I was doing a statistical analysis of SOG versus Benchmade. Where did I say that? Why would I do that? Maybe if someone gave me a sample of a couple of hundred knives and paid me to then I'd be happy to do a regression analysis for them...What I said was that I wanted to know if SOG themselves did any quantifiable tests, whether just their knives or a head to head comparison to competitors, on the life span of their arclocks. Therefore, you're wrong. It's a totally fair question to ask that can be easily answered with a "yes, we have...", or a "no, we have not..." Once again you've totally taking my words out of context.

cpirtle, I don't mind if you or anyone challenges things I say, or disagree, but please don't misquote me. If you're going to keep doing then I'd sooner you ignore my posts because we both end up looking silly.

To condense what I'm sayin: Companies that claim to make high quality products, and charge such a price, should strive to make their products of high quality. Would you disagree with that? No, you'd probably agree. See, we actually agree. :)

Do you appreciate that good after-sales service exists? Probably yes. Me too. See we agree. :)

BUT, would you sooner not have anything out of the ordinary go wrong with your knives? Probably yes. Me too. We agree. :)

Which would you consider better? A 10% defect rate, or a 5% defect rate? Probably 5%. Me too. We agree. :)

Would you appreciate a company that has a 10% defect rate taking measures to reduce it to 5%? Probably yes. Me too. We agree. :)

You see, we actually agree...scary isn't it? ;)
 
Copied from "General" forum...

Originally posted by cpirtle
Guys,

I certainly don't like sending a knife in for warranty any more than anyone else does. But that fact of the matter is that the Axis lock uses some small parts that can beak.

If it is possible for Bm to get better springs I'm all for it. But before I come here telling everyone that BM needs to redesign their lock, or purchase better springs I need some hard facts as to how many of them break.

If the number of broken Omega springs has been 100 and BM has produced 100,000 knives with the Axis lock, that is a .001 percent failure rate.

Just because a few people here have said theirs broke, that is nothing scientific.

Benchmade is a company that has always tried to improve on their product. When there were a lot of reports about their QC and customer service they worked to improve it.

If they see a high failure rate in their springs they'll improve on them, or people will stop buying the knives.

Until then, the best thing you can do is send your knife in for a repair of the Omega spring, this way BM can know if and when they have another one broken.

A couple of years ago I swore off Benchmade for a while because I thought they were lacking in QC. No I own 8-9 newer generation BM's and all of them exhibit excellent QC (with centered blades).

So, I don't disagree with your premise that the product should be as good as it can be, I disagree with the way you are impuning the product because of your perception.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top