Are all stainless steals prone to roll over?

dipbait

dipbait

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Feb 9, 2008
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Ive quadrupled my knife sharpening skills from this forum. Thank you guys very much.

It seems that all of my stainless steel knives form a wire bead when I sharpen them, and always on the same side. My Kershaws, Schrades, Gerbers... I have learned how to to knock that edge off and continue but my carbon steel kitchen knives dont do it. Im to the point that I dont want stainless anymore. Am now planning to use carbon steel for all my needs. Are all stainless steals prone to edge roll over?
 
All steels will get a burr, wire edge, roll over, its part of the sharpening process. Some steels (mostly stainless) get a larger burr than the rest and are harder to get rid of. The burr forming to one side consistantly is caused by the way you sharpen, you will have a strong side and a weak side when sharpening that's just the facts of doing it by hand. To remove the burr, strop with compound, it will get rid of that burr and leave you with a nice sharp clean edge.
 
knifenut1013 said:
All steels will get a burr, wire edge, roll over, its part of the sharpening process. Some steels (mostly stainless) get a larger burr than the rest and are harder to get rid of. The burr forming to one side consistantly is caused by the way you sharpen, you will have a strong side and a weak side when sharpening that's just the facts of doing it by hand. To remove the burr, strop with compound, it will get rid of that burr and leave you with a nice sharp clean edge.
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X2, your carbon steel knives would get a burr if you do more strokes on the same side, some steels are harder than others.
 
Yep, I like to use burr formation as a guide when sharpening. The formation of a burr as you sharpen is proof positive that your grind strokes have reached the very edge. The magic marker trick is good too, but burr formation is the more failsafe indicator.

Sometimes when I have trouble getting a good edge on the SharpMaker, I will just start working one side forcefully on the coarse rod corners until I feel a burr forming. That usually solves the problem. The normal "side to side" use of the SharpMaker does not facilitate monitoring of burring.

I think this two step process is almost considered a standard method. First grind until a burr has been formed from each side. Second, use finess strokes to remove the burr. This can be repeated on finer grit stones to refine the edge. However, I know some argue that a sharper edge can be obtained by stopping just short of the burr formation point. I haven't learned to do that yet.

I'm not sure how the use of convex bevels or micro bevels affect burr formation. I haven't used those enough to know. Then there is the point mentioned above that some steels form larger burrs than others. Also, I have had problems with 420HC forming burrs that seem "deep rooted" so to speak. Such burrs can't just be wiped away with light strokes. They just flop back and forth. I usually just grind these away by cutting directly into the stone and then try forming a new edge with very light strokes to prevent reformation of this burr type.
 
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My terminology also needs work .

I understand the burr. I get to that point easily with Old hickory knives. After removing it and honing to get to that really sharp stage , it seems that stainless steel knives will have a solid , wire edge on one side. It can be felt with a thumbnail. I remove that and continue. It often reforms after a few swipes on ceramic rods. The edge of the knife{the burr is not being totally removed} is being rolled over forming this hard bead. Thats only a problem with my stainless models like Kershaw, Schrade, and Gerber. I was asking if this is a problem with all stainless? Maybe I have bad technique and its only a problem for me.
 
dipbait said:
My terminology also needs work .

I understand the burr. I get to that point easily with Old hickory knives. After removing it and honing to get to that really sharp stage , it seems that stainless steel knives will have a solid , wire edge on one side. It can be felt with a thumbnail. I remove that and continue. It often reforms after a few swipes on ceramic rods. The edge of the knife{the burr is not being totally removed} is being rolled over forming this hard bead. Thats only a problem with my stainless models like Kershaw, Schrade, and Gerber. I was asking if this is a problem with all stainless? Maybe I have bad technique and its only a problem for me.
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It isn't a problem with all stainlesses, but what you're seeing doesn't really surprise me. The additional alloying materials added to stainless steels can lead to the formation of really stubborn, "floppy" burrs, especially if the steels aren't run particularly hard. And, sometimes, you find carbon steel blades that are a bitch to sharpen, so heat treat is a big factor regardless of steel.

You mention Schrade and Gerber, and I've personally had problems with the steels in those two brands. As for Kershaw, I can't say ... in the past year or so they have replaced the basic steel in much of their line with Sandvik 13C26 and now 14C28N, which IMO are just excellent, sharpening very easily with very little trouble such as you describe.

So don't write of the stainless steels yet. I think if you were to try one of the new Sandvik Kershaws, a Spyderco model with VG-10 steel, or even one of the economical Byrd line of knives, you'd be pretty pleased.
 
dipbait said:
My terminology also needs work .
The edge of the knife{the burr is not being totally removed} is being rolled over forming this hard bead. Thats only a problem with my stainless models like Kershaw, Schrade, and Gerber. I was asking if this is a problem with all stainless? Maybe I have bad technique and its only a problem for me.
Click to expand...

When sharpening 420HC I used to get a "wire edge" or burr that could not be removed. It would just fold back an forth as I changed sides for honing. I could also flop it back and forth with a smooth steel. The "bead" description is not how I would describe the thing. Maybe you have something different. :confused:

Anyway, I concluded that my problem was related to the blade steel type, the stone type, and the amount of force used. Using less force and a sharper stone abrasive type helped prevent the problem. So for instance use less force on the ceramics and make sure they are clean. Better yet use a DMT diamond stone which cuts more with less force needed.

Honing with excess force can form a thin fin on the edge which won't grind off because it is too flexible to be forced into the stone media.
 
The burr is the result of the sharpening angles coming together at the edge. When the two angles meet the side that is being honed becomes thinner than the other causing excess metal to roll over to the other side. Using finer stones reduce the size of the burr but never really get rid of it. Stropping seems to do the trick most of the time but I still wonder what it would look like under an electron microscope.
 
The problem is with your sharpening technique, not with stainless steel. Carbon steel is more forgiving of mistakes. It makes everybody seem like a sharpening genius.

Burrs form when you remove more than the minimum amount of material to reach an edge. The burr is the remnant of the material that you thought you removed from the apex of your edge, but in reality it folded away from your hone as you worked. Even with a light touch you can get some burr, but using excessive honing pressure (particularly on a narrow honing surface like a ceramic rod) will cause a larger fraction of the edge to bend out of alignment. So first of all use light pressure as you approach the end of your honing process. Another thing that maximizes a burr is honing on one side at a time. As you get to the later phases of your honing be sure that you are honing on alternate sides of the edge on every stroke (left-side, right-side, left-side, right-side...).

A burr forms because your hone's abrasive particles are not shaving off little bits of the edge like a razor blade. The particles varie from rounded, to pointy, to flat-topped. They shave off some material, but they also have a tendency to simply plow through and bend over some of the blade material. If the blade is extremely brittle like glass it will microchip as you hone it. If the blade material is softer it will not chip, but it will tend to do some burr formation as soon as your edge gets thin. If your carbon steel knife is 58 or 60 RC hardness it will form a bit less burr than a stainless steel blade that is 56 or 58 RC. If your stainless steel has large chromium carbide grains in it those will tend to fold over rather than get cut.

The sure way to debur an edge is to lightly hone edge-forwards at an angle that is significantly greater than your normal honing angle using an abrasive that cuts more than simply polishing. When I do most of my honing at 15 degrees I will bebur using clean medium-grit ceramic rods at 25 degrees. It only takes about 8 light strokes to do it (left, right, left, right, left, right, left, right). Then I go back to 15 degrees and restore my edge with a minimum number of strokes. If you go back and hone too much you will just create another burr.

You may actually still have a burr on your carbon steel blades. Carbon steel is easy to push into alignment and it forms a fairly sturdy burr. For years I happily used burred carbon steel blades. They shaved great and I didn't notice that they dulled faster than they should have. For a kitchen knife you might be happy if you just pushed your burrs into alignment by a little light stroking on smooth ceramic rods or on a smooth steel. You could do the same thing if you sort of lightly hone a burred edge on the side of a glass. Remember to work on a soft cutting board in the kitchen.
 
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