Are Japanese knives less tough than American\German?

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kreisler

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i am shocked by the number of grossly chipped kitchen knives. most of them are Japanese made. hard to imagine if the knives were CTS-XHP or S30V same would have happened to the edges, what do you think?

absolutely shocking:eek:
and a J. shame :oops:
:confused:
 
okay i see your point.
but the original question remains .. it seems that more of the J. steels are affected by user's accidental damaging. or not?
 
J knives are harder and thinner than most German or western knives so yes they are less tough and will be more prone to chipping
 
80/20 Pareto principle at its best, German knives are made for the 80% of the public which is not professional, so they are not as hard but more tough, on the opposite side Japanese knives are harder, thinner and in consequence more fragile if handled by someone not trained to use them.
To be clear I don't mean German knives are bad, not at all.

Pablo
 
kreisler said:
i am shocked by the number of grossly chipped kitchen knives. most of them are Japanese made. hard to imagine if the knives were CTS-XHP or S30V same would have happened to the edges, what do you think?
absolutely shocking and a shame
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Chipped by whom and in what context? If the knives were S30V and the same hardness and geometry as the unnamed J knives, they would chip when abused. No kitchen knife will chip when properly used. Some companies like Shun and Global are quite clear in their warranties what is 'normal' use and covered and what is 'abuse' and is not covered.
cute video. quick way to get lots of views and subscribers.
the old sailor
 
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To over simplify - ignoring alloy materials that increase toughness - harder steel means more brittle.
Japanese knives are harder - about 60-67 HRC.
European knives are traditionally 55 HRC or less. Recently that has changed as Japanese knives gain more popularity.
Given the same alloy, Japanese knife makers will harden their blades more. Japanese blades are also thinner. In the hands of somebody who doesn't properly use their knives, this leads to chipping. At one internet vendor's website, they have a lengthy explaination for the Moritaka gyuto, also saying your misuse is not their problem.
It isn't a professional/home cook issue. Wustof's and Sabatiers are soft. This can be traced back to Bronze Age China - they simply chose to make harder blade and it stuck.
If you know what you are doing, it isn't an issue. If you choose the right tool for you, it isn't an issue. When in doubt, choose the tougher blade.

Notice EDC knives are softer, <60 HRC typically. There are a few exceptions. Meat cleavers, European swords, and such are normally <50 HRC, usually 44-45 HRC. Machetes usually have lower carbon content and aren't as hard. Hardness is sacrificed for toughness.
A European Chef's knife and Japanese Gyutos aren't exactly direct replacements.
A European chef's knife is meant to be able to do light butchery. The heel is much thicker and the bolster can be used to break chicken bones. The tip is thin and can be used for detail work. So it handles meat as well as vegetables, but has the unfortunate tendency to crack crisper, taller foods like melons or large carrots. Within European cuisine, it is very versatile and handles everything.
The Japanese have a specialty knife for everything. Meat, besides fish, is not a traditional part of the diet. A deba is used to break down fish. A gyuto is lighter and thinner, a precision instrument. You'll note Japanese cuisine also has far more thin slices. The gyuto handles a narrower range of tasks, but does them very well.
 
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I run a sharpening business and while I can't explain why, I see an inordinate portion of J knives with chips and host of issues that few Germans have.

I just fix them and move on.

Jim
 
My Japanese kitchen knives are harder and have thinner edges than my German ones.

The Japanese ones cut significantly better and stay sharp longer. I love them. Use them for about 8 years now, and no chipping. They are designed to cut food on a wood or plastic cutting board, and do that better than anything else.

I use the soft German knives when there will be hard bone contact.

It would be sad if the "hard use" craze would spill over to kitchen knives and Japanese manufacturers would start to thicken up their kitchen knife edges and run them softer.
 
So you guys reduce the chipping phenomenon solely to the thickness and hardness of the blade? I get it, if you take steelA and make it thinner and harder, it will chip faster.

But how about steelB? It seems that the J cutlery makers don't even try modern American steels which are high in the toughness rating. I would believe that modern American steels (as used in mass production by Spyderco a. o.) are tougher than what Shun uses for their chef knives.
 
The "Modern" American steels do have higher toughness but at reduced hardness. There are Japanese steels with similar composition to "modern" steels. The issue becomes edge stability. Don't know which exact steel you are talking about.
As far as Spyderco, look at their culinary line, Japanese steel made in Japanese factories.
Again, look at the cause of chipping. Hit a bone, dropped on counter, cut on a ceramic plate, used glass cutting board, blade twisted during cut, ..... in other words, Abuse.
You end up with 2 choices. Softer steel which bends or hard steel that chips.
 
scott.livesey said:
Again, look at the cause of chipping. Hit a bone, dropped on counter, cut on a ceramic plate, used glass cutting board, blade twisted during cut, ..... in other words, Abuse.
You end up with 2 choices. Softer steel which bends or hard steel that chips.
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Fundamental physics that if it can't bend it will break. Glass cannot bend so it breaks. Same principle follows into any material.

That said I see some people bring in both German and Japanese so same user cutting practices, cleaning et al. Odds are the Japanese are chipped and the German flattened.

Not going into what J knives suffer most and least but not all are train wrecks.
 
kreisler said:
It seems that the J cutlery makers don't even try modern American steels which are high in the toughness rating. I would believe that modern American steels (as used in mass production by Spyderco a. o.) are tougher than what Shun uses for their chef knives.
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I don't know what Shun use, but I'm sure there is an element of tradition here. Why go for a high tech new steel when #1 white steel was good enough for your grandparents?
Also, this comes back to the difference in cooking styles. If you sharpen your own knives and mostly cook vegetables you don't need the toughness, and it's nice to have it easier to sharpen with a finer edge. Simpler steel is better for that than something with lots of large carbide.
 
Alex Topfer said:
I don't know what Shun use, but I'm sure there is an element of tradition here. Why go for a high tech new steel when #1 white steel was good enough for your grandparents?
Also, this comes back to the difference in cooking styles. If you sharpen your own knives and mostly cook vegetables you don't need the toughness, and it's nice to have it easier to sharpen with a finer edge. Simpler steel is better for that than something with lots of large carbide.
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You need to look at the Shun website. Their knives are VG-10, VG Max, Hitachi Blue, and AUS10. VG10 and VG Max are high tech stainless, maybe not the latest release, but not 440A either.
Who ever you are, if you are careful in the kitchen, you don't need a high toughness knife.
 
Give me a Japanese knife over ANYTHING ELSE any day of the week.
My Little Monster is an example LINK > > >
Now if he was chipping or getting dings or rolls I could change the sharpening bevel to a more obtuse edge. I've found no need on this knife. Depends on the use obviously.
The edge toughness is easier to tune on a thin Japanese blade than trying to get the other stuff to actually perform adequately.
Murry is right :
 
not2sharp said:
a bit like driving an Indy car over city potholes.
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Or complaining that a Ferrari doesn't have snow plow attachment points from the factory.
Come on Ferrari you're so lame. Who would want one of those :confused:
Meeeeeeeeeeeee :eek:
PS: a line from one of my favorite books :
"He died of an over dose of brick wall while under the influence of a Ferrari."

Yeah it was the car's fault. Sure . . .
 
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I don't disagree with Murray at all. But do you want your brother in law coming over and grabbing your "Little Monster" to hack down chicken legs like he was chopping down a tree?

Used as intended and not abused J knives absolutely will cut better. In laws wailing on stuff a German will survive with less damage.
Everybody grabs my F Dick Premier and it suffers a bit but they stay away from my Miyabi Artisan.
 
Actually I don't care if the mass market Japanese Chef's knives manufacturers change to new steels.
There seems to be enough of a market for Whites, Blues, & Ginsan in the US that blade makers are turning here.

Actually J-knives seem to be growing in popularity with pro chefs. A very tough environment and with low paid workers. If a knife survives without issue for what amount to a life time's prep work for a normal home user, then the knife is fit. Problems can be attributed to the users.
 
F. Dick's 1778 (Dbl. X VG12) and 1893 (VG 10 33) lines are both 61 HRC, F. Dick private labels the Wolf Gourmet line (VG 10 33) for Subzero-Wolf and they are also listed as 61 HRC, though I've been told it's higher, so the Germans can make a hard knife if they choose to; their standard forged line, the Premier Plus, is 56 HRC. The 1778 line is much thinner than their Premier Plus and the 1778's heel is similar to a Japanese knife's ago without a heavy bolster extension to the edge, we see very few chipping issues with the 1778 line, but I will admit, it isn't a big seller for F. Dick and there aren't a great many of them in service; I would also say, as O Ourorboros notes above, "Probems can be attributed to the users" in most damage issues.
 
The thin edges of a more traditional Asian style knife Leeds itself to more easily chipped edges. Combined with it traditionally being ran to a higher hardness as well.

On the plus side there is less steel removal during sharpening and repair work so it's not too big of a deal if it does happen. I still selected my Kai Luna knives to be my go to kitchen knives as I wanted a good thin geometry for ease of cutting and a low wear resistant blade for ease of sharpening/repair when my family eventually abuses the blade.
 
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