Are knife makers still putting steel bolsters on their knives?

I concur... the crud is no bueno. Especially for a knife that will see as much use and moisture as a chef knife, the crud will crop up quicker. To me, kitchen knives have their own set of rules, one of which is to cut down on exposed metal and glue lines (no full tang) and another of which is to eliminate food traps (not a fan of forge finish flats, tubing fasteners, takedown handles, or engraving for knives in the kitchen.) Sanitary is the word. I do make compromises, such as the use of carbon steels which will patinate, but at least there's no verdegris there to contend with. To me that's part of the unique challenge of this genre, the very real performance requirements that need to be worked within.
 
I have been making and selling kitchen knives with copper ferrules and bolsters for just over 5 years and have been using 3 of my own for longer than that. (I've actually been making knives with copper fittings for over a decade) Never, EVER, have I seen any "crud" build up... no green to be seen(unless I put it there on purpose). I've never had a complaint, either.

Lots of makers use copper in kitchen knives. I can't understand how you could get that kind of build up if you are using it. The example of an old brass guard stuck in a sheath is completely different. If your intent is to stick it in a wood block or drawer as a science experiment than, yes... copper and carbon steel will oxidize before nickle and stainless. That said, you need to ask yourself why, how and what the real world impact is.

I am curious as to whether you guys have actually experience this or just figured it would happen, based on seeing neglected knives and old church steeples? Do you have any examples of food contamination occurrences as a direct result of copper "crud"? I'd be surprised. You do realize why they use copper for water pipes, right? ... along with being easier to manipulate and solder...

"Copper has natural anti-microbial properties that help kill harmful bacteria and pathogens. Copper pipes also inhibit the growth of bacteria and slime inside the pipes that can lead to illness. Copper's prohibitive effects on diseases such as E-coli O157, polio virus, and Legionella pneumophilia (the cause of Legionnaire's disease), among other harmful bacteria, have all been tested."

They use copper in fabrics to inhibit bacterial growth, as well.

Folks, also like to bring up dissimilar metal or Galvanic corrosion. This does not come into play if done right. No gaps, no leaks, no corrosion. Dissimilar metals have to be bridged by an electrolyte to create the reaction. Easily avoidable.

Lets try to keep our personal judgments rooted in fact.... and yes... I am a bit pissed... not solely due to this conversation... just grumpy... Bahhh!
 
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"Copper has natural anti-microbial properties that help kill harmful bacteria and pathogens. Copper pipes also inhibit the growth of bacteria and slime inside the pipes that can lead to illness. Copper's prohibitive effects on diseases such as E-coli O157, polio virus, and Legionella pneumophilia (the cause of Legionnaire's disease), among other harmful bacteria, have all been tested."

I never knew that. I know silver has this propperty, never knew it from Cu.
I have heared an objection against using Cu or Cu-alloy and that is it reacting to Cu-sulfate which supposetly is poisonous.
I have no idea if it is true or not. Does anybody know?
 
In fact for commercial use here in Canada the handles must be sealed to the blade. No cracks and no pins and only stainless steel blades I believe . Some of the carbon Damascus ones makers are completing are very beautiful, such as those made by Salem Straub and many others but I would not try to place them into service in my home. My wife would make sure it would only happen the once. As well, I myself do not feel they are suitable in food use. Yes. that's what they were made for and can do well at but the color change when the the metal does its oxidizing thing- rusting , turns me away. Certainly this is a personal feeling just as I hope I have other personal feelings in all the knives I make. Your arguments on copper and other other bacterial resisting metals just won't pass the Canada inspection thing.
So what you say I have many chefs out there using my Damascus and carbon steel bladed knives. I believe they all can make their own choices. I'm not telling you to stop making them.
On the other hand I believe they sure can be collectibles !!!!
Frank
 
I guess I'm one of the newbs using black bolsters and copper liners. I use it because I love the way it looks.

IMG_5940 by Robert Erickson, on Flickr

As for concern regarding copper in the kitchen I would concur with Rick that it's not an issue. Here's an abstract from the NIH describing the bacteriostatic effect of copper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3067274/

As for the patina that develops on copper it can easily be removed with fine steel wool or a little Flitz paste. I tell customers they can send the knife back and I'll do it for them if they prefer.
 
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alot of the people love the hammered copper fronts i put on my WA handles. i also use SS and nic silver or dammy. i really dont do many bolstered knives tho last dovetail "bolstered fixed blade was integral and most of my folders get bolsters but im lucky to make one every few years
 
I know nothing about Canada, but I know someone here tried claiming most states prohibit the use of carbon steel in commercial kitchens. When that statement was scrutinized it was changed to some health inspectors don't like it. I see nothing wrong with it. They've used carbon steel or black steel for kitchen knives for something like 3 days shy of forever. My thinking is if I'm making a stainless knife, stainless furniture makes sense. But if one has to maintain a carbon steel blade, it doesn't take any longer to wipe down a brass or copper bolster as well.
 
Rick Marchand said:
I have been making and selling kitchen knives with copper ferrules and bolsters for just over 5 years and have been using 3 of my own for longer than that. (I've actually been making knives with copper fittings for over a decade) Never, EVER, have I seen any "crud" build up... no green to be seen(unless I put it there on purpose). I've never had a complaint, either.

Lots of makers use copper in kitchen knives. I can't understand how you could get that kind of build up if you are using it. The example of an old brass guard stuck in a sheath is completely different. If your intent is to stick it in a wood block or drawer as a science experiment than, yes... copper and carbon steel will oxidize before nickle and stainless. That said, you need to ask yourself why, how and what the real world impact is.

I am curious as to whether you guys have actually experience this or just figured it would happen, based on seeing neglected knives and old church steeples? Do you have any examples of food contamination occurrences as a direct result of copper "crud"? I'd be surprised. You do realize why they use copper for water pipes, right? ... along with being easier to manipulate and solder...

"Copper has natural anti-microbial properties that help kill harmful bacteria and pathogens. Copper pipes also inhibit the growth of bacteria and slime inside the pipes that can lead to illness. Copper's prohibitive effects on diseases such as E-coli O157, polio virus, and Legionella pneumophilia (the cause of Legionnaire's disease), among other harmful bacteria, have all been tested."

They use copper in fabrics to inhibit bacterial growth, as well.

Folks, also like to bring up dissimilar metal or Galvanic corrosion. This does not come into play if done right. No gaps, no leaks, no corrosion. Dissimilar metals have to be bridged by an electrolyte to create the reaction. Easily avoidable.

Lets try to keep our personal judgments rooted in fact.... and yes... I am a bit pissed... not solely due to this conversation... just grumpy... Bahhh!
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Rick!

I am aware of the anti-microbial properties of Copper and its my understanding that so does Stainless Steel and of course Brass. I live by the Ocean "So do many of my Customers" whom have a house keeper that will leave the $400 plus knife in the sink with food on it etc.. :eek: And run them through the dish washer:rolleyes: Some of my customers aren't much better! I don't use carbons steels for Culinary knives for this reason as well..
. I have seen Oxidation/Green of Kitchen knives with copper, a couple of times, usually the copper Liner. Most likely due to not using a proper epoxy to seal out moisture and having the dissimilar metals.

If you use Copper and are happy with the results! By all means go for it.

I'm always open to real Scientific facts and learning new ones..

Here in California they have a law that you have to use Plastic Cutting boards in a commercial kitchen because it's cleaner that natural wood. The Stuff is filthy, As soon as you get those grooves in the plastic Bacterial has a place to grow and we are eating those small amounts of plastic..:(

The plastic dulls knives at 3-4 times the rate of Natural woods, Natural Wood has Anti-microbial like the metals we are discussing.. I think someone from the Plastic's Association/Lobby gave fat checks to or financed someone's election to make this happen. While there is some contrary studies. This one seems credible to me.. http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/faculty/docliver/Research/cuttingboard.htm

.I did my Sunday Farmer's Market for Sharpening and presenting my Customers so its been a long day if this seems jumble in context! Not Grumpy! Just Tired!;)
 
Frank Niro said:
In fact for commercial use here in Canada the handles must be sealed to the blade. No cracks and no pins and only stainless steel blades I believe . Some of the carbon Damascus ones makers are completing are very beautiful, such as those made by Salem Straub and many others but I would not try to place them into service in my home. My wife would make sure it would only happen the once. As well, I myself do not feel they are suitable in food use. Yes. that's what they were made for and can do well at but the color change when the the metal does its oxidizing thing- rusting , turns me away. Certainly this is a personal feeling just as I hope I have other personal feelings in all the knives I make. Your arguments on copper and other other bacterial resisting metals just won't pass the Canada inspection thing.
So what you say I have many chefs out there using my Damascus and carbon steel bladed knives. I believe they all can make their own choices. I'm not telling you to stop making them.
On the other hand I believe they sure can be collectibles !!!!
Frank
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Frank... I found nothing in the government regulations on ANYTHING you said. The only thing I found was a former inspector saying that common sense should be used. I just emailed two of my restaurant owners and they haven't heard anything like that either. No cracked, loose or gapped handles is what the inspectors look for. I sure hope you aren't winging it, bud. That paragraph of yours had a lot to say about products many makers are activly selling to professionals... but so far, I seems to be your opinion.

Do you have any links?

Sorry to sway off topic. Maybe I'll start another thread.
 
I would echo Laurence's sentiments on this one. If I was to use copper on a kitchen knife, I'd be more comfortable using it with stabilized wood, quality adhesives, and selling it to a person who practices good knife care.
As for Frank's referring to carbon damascus blades patinating as "rusting" I would beg to differ. Oxidation, yes- rust, no. That's too extreme a descriptor for the effect. If anything, a carbon blades surface will passivate to an extent once a certain amount of patina has formed. That's one of the reasons for mustard etching...
Also, even "stainless" will rust if abused. That said, some folks have no business owning or using carbon in the kitchen!
 
Frank Niro said:
In fact for commercial use here in Canada the handles must be sealed to the blade. No cracks and no pins and only stainless steel blades I believe . Some of the carbon Damascus ones makers are completing are very beautiful, such as those made by Salem Straub and many others but I would not try to place them into service in my home. My wife would make sure it would only happen the once. As well, I myself do not feel they are suitable in food use. Yes. that's what they were made for and can do well at but the color change when the the metal does its oxidizing thing- rusting , turns me away. Certainly this is a personal feeling just as I hope I have other personal feelings in all the knives I make. Your arguments on copper and other other bacterial resisting metals just won't pass the Canada inspection thing.
So what you say I have many chefs out there using my Damascus and carbon steel bladed knives. I believe they all can make their own choices. I'm not telling you to stop making them.
On the other hand I believe they sure can be collectibles !!!!
Frank
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This baffles me on several points. For one thing, a whole lot of sushi chefs would be pretty ticked at having to use a yanagiba made without e.g. Hitachi blue/white, no traditional tang-burn-in, etc. -- does Dexter or Victorinox make a nice yanagiba with a nice molded nylon handle on 303? :) And I'd be surprised if a food inspector would have a problem with a ubiquitous Henckels/Wusthof 3-pin 9". That said: as to carbon being not "suitable in food use" - I think Bob Kramer would be a little surprised by that. I happen to own an original Kramer 9", with brass + mosaic pins and a nice patina on it. And, while it's also definitely a "collectible" (I've seen 'em go for over $10k on eBay when you can find one, and a friend of mine has been on his 'lottery' waiting list for 4-5 years now), it works a charm, keeps an edge like a scalpel. And while it patinas, it does not "rust" - I wipe it dry, and especially after slicing lemons or tomatoes, wipe a little tsubaki (camellia) oil or even just canola before putting it away. It looks like gunmetal, not a shipwreck anchor. Me, I got into knifemaking because of that knife - I love it, but it's a german-style fatbelly best suited for rock-choppers, and I'm a push-slicer. My previous fave was my grandmother's Sabatier Deux Lions 12" - also high-carbon - about a city-block long with a profile like a Roman spear. I'm making mostly hybrid french/gyutos - in carbon. Bouncing around among 1084, 52100, and 80CrV2 (which actually does start to spot if you so much as look at it sideways, but is a dream to work with and then keep sharp), trying to settle on which I like best.

I could not possibly agree more with Salem Straub's points ^^^. Life's full of trade-offs - if you want optimum kitchen steel for actual cutting, you don't gripe about taking proper care of it. I mean: thoroughbreds are high-maintenance, but boy can they run. But that doesn't mean everybody who wants to ride a horsey should get one. :) OTOH (which still has 5 fingers, crosses-self), I'm with you on "damascus". It's purty, and collectible - great for show. Buys nothing inherently in performance, though - and it seems a lot of operators sell into the conflation between actual wootz and the historical metallurgical reasons for it -- vs. what's (usually) just a pretty pattern, and a lot of work and cost. Me, I'll put the aesthetic work into the handle, and the science into the blade.

Sorry for the length; as the man said "I would've made it briefer, but I didn't have time". One last thought: one of the most sublime examples of simple, lasting, popular, and brilliant product design: the Opinel #8. A fine argument for carbon steel - with a lot of 'votes'. :)
 
Salem Straub said:
Oxidation, yes- rust, no. That's too extreme a descriptor for the effect. If anything, a carbon blades surface will passivate to an extent once a certain amount of patina has formed. That's one of the reasons for mustard etching...
Also, even "stainless" will rust if abused. That said, some folks have no business owning or using carbon in the kitchen!
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And will stay like that forever . This is knife I make from 1.2519 1,5mm thick steel and vinegar on , after one year in my kitchen .Nobody take care of this knife except me . All life we use stainless , so hard to take away habits .............. but here it is , no rust at all .................
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Tyshoots said:
Second time trying bolsters. I like the look and will continue to try and refine the process.
View attachment 869455
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Nice! Very clean - and beautiful sheath.

First time I tried bolsters (brass, on a 240mm gyuto) I was terrified. Watched about 300 YouTube vids, read about it in my trusty copy of Boye, prayed to a number of deities, and went s-l-o-w. Came out darn near perfect, although I had to chase a bit of silver solder out of the handle-side seam with the tang of a little triangular file. Not so bad, I thinks to meself.

"NOT so fast..." said those who punish the cocky. Pride goeth before a fall, and fall I did.

Next two tries I wasn't quite so cautious and - well, one's still hanging on the oops rack. The other one I re-did, still had 'squeeze-out' and I ended up doing a LOT of very delicate filing and trying to sand it back to match the (fortunately matte) finish of the rest of the blade*. I went back to the YouTuber and picked up a couple of tips I'd forgotten, particularly to hold the knife on its side, not vertically -- it's a lot easier to grind off run-out along the spine and belly than on the blade or tang. Also to liberally use yellow ochre or welder's soapstone (I like the latter better), heat s-l-o-w-l-y, and let the solder get sucked into the gap by capillary action - don't 'push' it in like stick-welding. One guy actually feeds from the bottom and lets it get sucked up until he sees it appear at the top. I'll have to try that, but I'll try it on a practice scrap first - which would've been a good idea in the first place, come to think of it. :)

*(Neat little tool hack, btw, if I do say so myself. I glued 2 fat popsicle sticks together and wrapped very thin strips of sandpaper along the round edge. I put some small pieces of stick on the sides as "guide rails" to hold the strip in place. You can get the idea from the Woodcraft sanding sticks - I was just too cheap and under too much time pressure to go buy 'em. And was hoping I'd never need 'em again. :))
 
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I love this thread, thanks for all the info...

I like copper & brass also, but as bolsters on folders, not so much on fixed blades. I'm also not a senior :)
In my mind, why would you want steel/brass/copper where your index finger controls the grip of the knife?
If it gets wet, you lose some control as the area gets slick. I know this may bother some people more than others...
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
The trend I don’t get at all is newer guys using copper & Brass as liners! Talk about asking for trouble! Haven’t these guys pulled an old Hunter with a brass guard on it out of a sheath and seen all of the green crud built up???
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I think that's more about cheap sheaths made of chome tanned leather.

If you use a kitchen knife daily, it will not build up anything.

I'll echo what Don Hanson mentioned
we have carbon steel old hickory knives here that are minimum thirty years old, probably forty - the blades have a patina, the rivets are shiny from use.

I have some brass bar stock and copper pipe that's that old too. It goes darker, but no foaming corrosion unless it's been in contact with lye or salt and wet the whole time
 
LARRYZ10 said:
I have not seen many knives recently on the forum with steel. nickel silver, or brass bolsters. Have the newer knife makers decided these are not needed or desirable? Does anyone dovetail their bolsters or shape them? Are nickel silver lanyard holes out of fashion also? Am I a fossil for liking these things on a sporting knife? Larry
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I think that bolsters and dovetail bolsters that are sculpted and well finished are beautiful and functional. As a young person trying to get started making knives, even if only part time I want to keep that practice going. You can be sure that if my knives ever make it to online sales level you will see those beautiful bolsters prominently!
 
Joshua,
Welcome to Shop Talk.

You should look at the date of the last few posts in a thread you pull up. This one is several years old. Necroposting should be avoided whenever possible.

BTW, thanks for filling out your profile :D:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
About the cheapest I have found for 416 stainless is Specialty Metals in Dallas. They have several thicknesses an widths.800-365-1168
 
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