Are spike axes practical as weapons?

T

Tim@TATCA

Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
11
Hell yeah! At some point someone asked if a spike axe had it over a hammer poll axe as a practical weapon. 200 years of fighting axe design should make that quite clear. of course. Is there any chance that those guys in Viet Nam just liked their spike axes because it looked good? Is it possible that the special forces guys who are having Ryan Johnson of RMJ forge design a spike axe for the big Taliban blow out coming soon in Afghanistan so they will have a way to open their beers?
Not very "Bleeping" likely.
Carrying a spike axe can literally be a pain in the airse for the person who sits on it the wrong way so ya gotta know the spike is there for a darn good reason

Click on this to see the new Taliban wacker from RMJ
 
Wow! That's an awesome hawk. Do you know what the length of the haft is?
 
Spike-poll battle axes with stone blades were used by Native Americans even before contact with white traders who could supply something more durable in metal. Similar head designs (normally with much longer handles) were used by infantry during medieval times in Europe. The "spike hawk" is a weapon, not a camp tool, and does have limitations for general-purpose use.

The head design of Ryan Johnson's hawk is very similar to a lot of the 1700's weapons traded to Eastern tribes with which I am familiar, and of course traces its heritage back to the Renaissance weapons on which the trade spike hawks were based. They served well as antipersonnel weapons during tribal warfare, the French and Indian War, and the Revolutionary War.

The curved, tapered spike is a far more effective penetrator than the "arrowhead" spike design used on some early hawks (e.g., the hawks used by Rogers' Rangers) and the curve of the spike follows the arc of the swing nicely to concentrate the force at the point of impact. It should also be easy to withdraw for a second strike, in contrast to barbed designs which might have you standing on the victim trying to pull the hawk out while his buddies cut you into small pieces. When I was doing the engineering studies for a spike model that I never managed to get into production (can't make enough of my standard precision working hawks to meet demand) I came to the same conclusions as to the geometry of an effective penetrator spike.

The metal handle is a departure from the trade spike hawks of the 1700's but is something seen in some of the medieval polearms having similar head designs. This ensures that you NEVER have to worry about breaking the handle in the field. Ryan has taken the best from a number of historic antipersonnel edged tools and incorporated them in his new spike hawk. The only thing he missed is the thrust-cut (like a knife) and hooking-cut capabilities that my hostile environments advisors and I felt were essential when I was designing the one battle hawk (the Warhawk) that I make.

Ryan Johnson is an outstanding hawk maker, and has always been dedicated to producing quality edged tools. If your personal needs happen to include a penetrator-spike tomahawk, you aren't going to go wrong in getting one from him.

TWO HAWKS
http://www.2hawks.net
 
Hey Guys, Thanks for the kind words.
Yes, the spike hawk is an effective weapon. I think historical accounts can stand on thier own when it comes to the number of kills associated with this style of tomahawk.
Even more interesting is the psychology behind the spike tomahawk. In his super incredible book " Firearms, Tools and Traps of the Mountain Men" (available from Amazon for less than $15!) Russel delves into this phenomenon - and it makes sense. When iron trade hawks first started coming over, it was a hot commodity - an incredible weapon. But, as time progressed, the Indians also discovered what a great tool the iron axe was. Problem: It is very difficult for a weapon to be cool and sexy when your wife uses it to cut firewood. Enter the spike tomahawk, Spontoon tomahawk, pipe tomahawk stage right. Ahhh...the spike tomahawk. Consider the thinking: "THIS is not something my wife uses to cut wood...this is not some chore tool, this is a weapon - pure and simple, to be used by real men, real warriors like me." Russel argues that the trend towards tomahawks that were purely weapons developed because of the machismo attitude of the braves using them. Luckily ( with the exception of the Missouri War Hatchet ) the trends produced some great designs.
Two Hawks is correct when he says that we drew on old designs for the hawk. The head shape is a classic Northeastern tribe style. I think Two Hawks overlooked the "beard" of the tomahawk, as it does have a hook cutting/slashing action. ( this is very difficult to see in my bad pictures. Apparently my digital camera only likes old looking stuff ) My thoughts on these old designs is simple - use lines that worked in the times they were used extensively. There is a beautiful marriage of form and function with a lot of the old tomahawks.
The Eagle Talon Special Forces Tomahawk has been a challenging and interesting project. To answer the question above, the overall length is 18 inches. If you would like exact dimensions on the axe, I can email them to you. I will be away from the computer 10/25 - 10/29, but I will be happy to answer any questions you guys have before or after that.
Thanks again, and God Bless America!


www.rmjforge.com
Eagle Talon kyle 3a.jpg
 
Ah,,, the psycology of the spike tomahawk. I have to admit that my collection contains so many spikies in no small part because to hold one these old timers is to know what it is to hold a weapon.
Pure and simple. Not a wood chopping tool or a poofed out feather stick with a "symbolic" axe head attached out of tradition. I'm talking hard core, skull cracking, poll arms, designed to take out the opposition as fast and efficiently as possible. As to the machismo aspect of it, while there certainly were a few oversized clown prop looking spikies around, for every one of those there are 3 or 4, short handled, compact spike axes that have minimal psychological impact to look at, but with maximum impact on one's head. So for the most part the historical record tends to lean toward practicality issues rather then psycology issues. ie. "Man that looks scary to get hit with VS I have no opinion because I'm currently dead after being hit with that little axe"
As to the origins of the American spike axe, I tend to believe that the European halberd and the boarding axe had far more to do with the design then any of the precolumbian native American designs. Here again the historical record rarely if ever shows native axes had spikes but rather polished axe blades in both grooved and celt forms. Now that I think about it in the 15 years I've been involved with prehistoric native American lithics/archeology the closest thing to a purely native American spiked axe I've seen would be the Sioux skull crushers with bi-pointed polished celt form stone heads. Not exactly a spike axe as we know it. As to whether the "arrowhead" spike design was earlier then the narrow barbless variety? Not really. It sort of went full circle as while a few of the early halberd knock offs had them, with these few exceptions the bulk of the spike axes and even the halberds that proceeded them had a hooked, narrow barbless design from about 1740s-1780s then from around the 1790s all the way up to around 1860 the spike became shorter, and straighter almost like a slaughterhouse bull killer axe. It was not until after 1860 that the bulk of the barbed spike axes appear and the general impression is that these were designed to have maximum macho visual impact. See the famous photo of the Crow warrior Black foot holding one in 1871. Page 52 in Indian tomahawks and Frontiesmen belt axes. All in all both posters in this discussion have valid points. And Ryan it's good to see you getting a break from what I'm sure is a busier then usual month. Also I was disappointed to see that the Mesq Tx blade show canceled but am looking forward to hooking up with you next time yur down Tajas way.
Tim
http://members.tripod.com/tomahawks-r-tatca/
members.tripod.com/tomahawks-r-tatca/:cool:
 
Ryan,

Nice work. Your press says it's differentially heat-treated. Do you have Rc estimates on the soft and hard parts? Thanks!

Joe
 
I can see the need to have thrusting capability, as Two Hawks states. Would a spike on the end of this hawk work? Or would it throw off the throwing balance? Would it be possible to re-design the hawk such that it does not have throwing capability, but has an upturned blade ala Two Hawks' warhawk and a spike on each end of the haft? In short, turn it into a battle axe with absolutely no throwing capability, but with sharp points sticking out every which way?
 
Ad -
When you throw your blade, you have provided your enemy with a weapon and deprived yourself of one. Hang onto it and cut your enemy into small pieces.

Ryan -
To answer his design question, a minor change in the upper and lower edges (to match the Warhawk profile, which evolved from a lot of give-and-take with folks from "hostile environments") and making them razor sharp would give your hawk the same thrust and hooking-cut capablities as the Warhawk, but with a spike as well.
The top edge of the spike should also be sharpened, so as to give it a triangular cross-section (which penetrates better in armor whether chain mail or Kevlar).
Keep up the excellent work.

TWO HAWKS
http://www.2hawks.net
 
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