Are There Any Good "Alphabet Soup" Steels [numbers]Cr[numbers]MoV

redsquid2

redsquid2

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Regarding [insert numbers here]Cr[insert more numbers here]MoV:

I guess I am a steel snob. There are bazillions of knives that use "alphabet soup" steel, including very popular brands. I ignore them. Am I missing something?

Thanks.
 
No, you are not missing anything.

On the other hand, you wouldn't miss anything if you decided to ignore all CPM(insert #) steels. Or all M(#).

There would still be plenty of other steeltypes, which would be more than sufficient.
 
Most would be adequate , with a proper HT . But that is often lacking on the cheap end .
 
8Cr{13-15}Mov is good, 9Cr{17-19}Mov is even better. The first number seems to suggest the Carbon content, the second number before "Mov" is Cr. My understanding is the bigger the first number, the better on edge holding, while bigger second number means better corrosion resistance. However, more carbon needs more Cr to keep same level of corrosion resistance, maybe that's why 9Crxxx has higher Cr than 8Crxxx. They are all stainless steel for sure, and should be stainless enough for EDC. Think of 8Crxxx to be equivalent of 440B while 9Crxxx compares to 440C on edge holding (per Cedric & Ada rope cutting data). I hope I can find some toughness data for them. They should all be easy to sharpen.

I recently even see 10Crxxx, but haven't see any test/review on it.
 
Yes. But.

Kershaw gets good, consistent, performance out of the Cro-Moly steels, and you can buy any of the value-priced offerings from them with confidence.

Columbia River Knife & Tool, has had problems in the past with maintaining consistent HT quality. Seems like about one out of every ten knives they produce just won't get sharp.

The Internet has opened up a lot of ways for people to get knives from companies that have no measurable standard for heat-treating at all, and you will probably get lucky, but maybe not.

In this case, it's the company, not the steel.
 
Rykjeklut said:
Well, what do you mean with "good"? They won't be close to say, M390.
Click to expand...

When I think "good" stainless, I think the Sandvik steels and N690/VG-10. Or Buck's 420HC.
 
xCrxMoV series steels would be the chinese equivalent to Japanese xAUS series or US 420-440x series steals...

It's not an "exact" cross over comparrison as there are slight variances between alloying elements which change the properties from one to another, but in a nutshell, these are all basically in the same class of steel and have very similar make-ups and properties;
3cr - 420j2
5cr15mov - aus4 - 420hc
7cr15mov - aus6 - 440a
8cr13mov - aus8 - 440b
9cr18mov - aus10 - 440c

So in and of themselves, they aren't necessarily "bad" steels for what they are, none of them are, but, when you factor in the integrity of the steel manufacturer; who's melting the metal? Are they making what they say they are with consistent tolerances from batch to batch? Integrity of the product manufacturer; is the knife company consistent in their demands of said steel source, and consistent in their own manufacturing processes to turn out a consistent product, and offer/stand-by their company warranty if a lemon slips through the process? And integrity of the heat treat; any steel can become trash if not properly heat treated, so is the company heat treating the product reputable and consistent in their processes to provide the ideal edge integrity, toughness, and corrosion resistence levels that the desired steel is intended to be able to achieve?

example: 420hc used by Buck, heat treated by Bos' proprietary technique, is still "only" 420hc and so the limits are evident by the steel matrix itself, but it is also a time tested proven consistent product that is some of, if not the best 420hc steel you'll find in a knife blade, and the warranty offered by Buck is top notch!

9cr18mov from Schrade/(Taylor Cutlery), I've had sharpen up nicely and hold that edge with much respect to other higher end knives, I've also had it roll and chip with little effort, plus their warranty dept. can be a bit frustrating... and not a knock on Schrade either, it is what it is, and they're selling sub $20 knives by the ship load, and they are what they are. Just the nature of the business...
 
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If you want to check elemental composition, I recommend Zknives. Just note that the graph displays maximum values for possible ranges so it can be worth checking the chart below the graph. I've linked it below with a graph comparing 440A, 440B, 7Cr17Mov, 8Cr13Mov, and 9Cr18Mov. This should help with the comparisons being made earlier in this thread.

9Cr18Mov is similar to 440B. It can be good when done correctly. For instance, Civivi does amazing things with 9Cr18Mov. I spent most of this year with either a Baklash or a Naja in my pocket and the edge retention has exceeded expectations. It also has good corrosion resistance. Another steel in this category is the Acuto 440 being used by Kizer's budget brand, Tangram.

8Cr13Mov is popular and when done correctly, it's "okay". That's really the best I can say about it. You'll notice that it has far less chromium than these other steels. Especially with the bead blast finish Kershaw used to like using, I've seen it rust. This is a steel that performs well under $20 but I really hate seeing it in $30-40 knives.

You can see that 7Cr17Mov is close to 440A and not surprisingly, they have similar qualities. Once upon a time, both were celebrated as inexpensive options for camping, survival, and diving applications due to their reasonable corrosion resistance. Edge retention is nothing to write home about but it's often better than 5Cr15, 3Cr13, or other "junk" steels. Depending on factors like heat treatment and blade geometry, 7Cr17Mov can be a decent alternative to 8Cr13Mov when you need more corrosion resistance.

http://zknives.com/knives/steels/st..., 8cr13mov, 440b, 9cr18mov&ni=,,,,&hrn=1&gm=0
 
Yes. So far the alphabet soup blade steel used on my offshore Old Timer 858OTB stockman has held up just fine.
I don't recall the exact alphabet and numbers used, but it is allegedly in the same class as 440C.
 
redsquid2 said:
There are bazillions of knives that use "alphabet soup" steel, including very popular brands. I ignore them. Am I missing something?
Click to expand...

Yes, you are missing something.

You are missing out on using some interesting knives made with adequate steels (assuming they only come in the xCrnMov series of steels). If that doesn't matter to you then keep on keeping on.
 
strategy9 said:
xCrxMoV series steels would be the chinese equivalent to Japanese xAUS series or US 420-440x series steals...

It's not an "exact" cross over comparrison as there are slight variances between alloying elements which change the properties from one to another, but in a nutshell, these are all basically in the same class of steel and have very similar make-ups and properties;
3cr - 420j2
5cr15mov - aus4 - 420hc
7cr15mov - aus6 - 440a
8cr13mov - aus8 - 440b
9cr18mov - aus10 - 440c

So in and of themselves, they aren't necessarily "bad" steels for what they are, none of them are, but, when you factor in the integrity of the steel manufacturer; who's melting the metal? Are they making what they say they are with consistent tolerances from batch to batch? Integrity of the product manufacturer; is the knife company consistent in their demands of said steel source, and consistent in their own manufacturing processes to turn out a consistent product, and offer/stand-by their company warranty if a lemon slips through the process? And integrity of the heat treat; any steel can become trash if not properly heat treated, so is the company heat treating the product reputable and consistent in their processes to provide the ideal edge integrity, toughness, and corrosion resistence levels that the desired steel is intended to be able to achieve?

example: 420hc used by Buck, heat treated by Bos' proprietary technique, is still "only" 420hc and so the limits are evident by the steel matrix itself, but it is also a time tested proven consistent product that is some of, if not the best 420hc steel you'll find in a knife blade, and the warranty offered by Buck is top notch!

9cr18mov from Schrade/(Taylor Cutlery), I've had sharpen up nicely and hold that edge with much respect to other higher end knives, I've also had it roll and chip with little effort, plus their warranty dept. can be a bit frustrating... and not a knock on Schrade either, it is what it is, and they're selling sub $20 knives by the ship load, and they are what they are. Just the nature of the business...
Click to expand...

Fascinating stuff. Much for me to learn.
 
I like the title. I work for a military arms manufacturer and we regularly use 32Cr14MoV steel in our machine gun barrels. Cold hammer forged. It makes some of the best barrels available for that particular application, chrome lined bores of course.

As far as application for knife blade use, that formula, or others similar are not particularly great. As others have stated, the Mxxx, CTSxxx, and CPMxxx series are superior. The powdered metal steels and various high speed tool steels make better blades.

Edited to add, our steel is domestically sourced, certainly not the Chinese CrMoV steels as stated earlier. A completely different animal altogether.
 
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Just yesterday I used a CRKT with 8Cr14MoV for hours scraping adhesive off rough brick with little regard for the knife. Ran it through a work sharp and it’s still doing its thing. For the money it is what it is. It’s my goto In situations where I’m not comfortable losing or ruining the nicer stuff
 
Brad Newman said:
Just yesterday I used a CRKT with 8Cr14MoV for hours scraping adhesive off rough brick with little regard for the knife. Ran it through a work sharp and it’s still doing its thing. For the money it is what it is. It’s my goto In situations where I’m not comfortable losing or ruining the nicer stuff
Click to expand...

AFAIK, 8Cr14Mov is a more tightly controlled 8Cr13Mov. I don't have much experience with it but I can say this. 8Cr13Mov is fairly easy to sharpen. It can take a nice edge and tends to hold on to it longer than its lower-numbered siblings. For an inexpensive knife you plan to abuse, there are certainly worse options.

Another potential benefit is for people learning to sharpen. In my case, acquiring some nerve problems has made it a real pain to sharpen freehand on stones. After getting some good recommendations, I finally invested in a KME. Being new to guided systems, that's exactly the kind of knife I'm going to start with.
 
I own a CRKT in 8Cr13Mov (I think.) It doesn't hold an edge like my knives that cost 3 times as much. But 30 seconds on a ceramic rod or coffee mug and it's back to sharp. And the knife is good looking and fun to carry once in a while.
 
UDIVER said:
Life's too short to carry budget blades
Click to expand...
Not if that is all your budget will accommodate.
As my Great Grandfather told me more than once:
"You don't have to pay a lot; to get a lot."

Most of the cost for the "high end" knives is for the name stamped or engraved on the tang.
Why pay a premium for a name?
Will a Cadillac or Lincoln sedan (for example) transport you "better" than a base Chevrolet or Ford sedan?
 
The alphabet steels do the job they were intended to do. They are easy to sharpen, have decent corrosion resistance, take a nice razor sharp edge, and are budget friendly. Alphabet steels don’t fall into the super steel category, but that doesn’t mean they are junk by any means. I have had plenty of good experiences with them. Since I don’t actually use my knives much, budget knives are really looking more attractive.
 
Shorttime said:
Yes. But.

Kershaw gets good, consistent, performance out of the Cro-Moly steels, and you can buy any of the value-priced offerings from them with confidence.

...
Click to expand...

Just a fair fyi, I used to think the same thing until I found that they DO sell junk 3cr13
Do not buy 3cr13 - models like 'starter', 'manifold', 'decoy', 'filter'

Sadly, even spyderco and kabar use this junk in the budget lines.
 
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