Arkansas Stones: Are They Still Considered Good?

[CasePeanut]

Well, a lot of that is because diamonds don't exactly make the habit of uniformly distributing themselves throughout a sedimentary substrate like silicon dioxide does. Naturally occurring abrasives each tended to have very different qualities and were only available in certain regions of the globe. As such, they were treated as a fairly precious resource and traded all over the world. You may find this an interesting read on the subject.

thank you for the PDF, really interesting. Do you have any other old docs on sharpening?

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

A few, but they're not scanned at the moment. It's been stashed away SOMEWHERE but I've got a cool old Chevrolet info-tising poster of sharpening stones and how they're used for what purposes, and so on.

 

[DeadboxHero]

I feel that once your sharpening competency reaches a certain point, ease of sharpening becomes more important than edge retention for most contexts. But that's ultimately a matter of personal preference. I find low-carbide or simple-carbide (chromium carbide) steels to give me the greatest overall satisfaction in the work I do.

I'm the complete opposite, gotta have the best steels and the best stones.

I feel that lower end steels can be a waste time to invest my best work to sharpen them to a high performing level. The edges just don't have any longivitiy, also I like that I can sharpen because I want to not because I have too. I feel most of the difficulty people have with high vanadium carbide volume steels is not have the proper stones to cut them.

That's why I've been working hard to push stone manufacturers to make higher end stones.

I definitely suffer to make knives out of the higher end steels. It's miserable and expensive.

I'll probably fold one day and just use 52100 and AEBL like Everybody else and cash in.

But for now I'm curious what the limits performance is and I really enjoy the edges I get with the proper gear.

 

[JD Spydo]

I'm the complete opposite, gotta have the best steels and the best stones.

I feel that lower end steels can be a waste time to invest my best work to sharpen them to a high performing level. The edges just don't have any longivitiy, also I like that I can sharpen because I want to not because I have too. I feel most of the difficulty people have with high vanadium carbide volume steels is not have the proper stones to cut them.

That's why I've been working hard to push stone manufacturers to make higher end stones.

Well "DeadBoxHero" I give you a high five on what you just said because I'm headed in that same direction. Why go backward? Why be enamored with buggy whip era tools? Now I will keep the Arkansas stones I got because I do believe that they still have some tool value to them. I do believe that they might still make great de-burring tools. It still baffles me that Mother Nature gave us "Diamond" which is the hardest abrasive known to us as of this day. But yet nature doesn't seem to have any abrasive that I personally would consider a close second. Actually I believe that Mr. Sal Glesser was truly ahead of his time when he introduced those great lineup of ceramic sharpening tools and so far I love all my Spyderco sharpening tools and have had great luck using them on a wide array of different sharpening jobs.

I think the future truly lies in ceramic technology from what I see at this time. I think maybe in our lifetimes we will see them develop a ceramic that might be as hard or close to being as hard as diamond>> and I don't think that technology is too far away either at the rate they are progressing. But I'm also wide open for any other new abrasive technology that might come along too.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Sintered ceramic stones like Spyderco produces are just aluminum oxide. So I'm curious as to why you keep coming back to them? Vitrified bond stones are ceramic also, it's just what the knife world usually refers to as "ceramic" is taken to mean sintered ceramics. Heck--silicon carbide itself is a ceramic.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Also, it's not at all "buggy whip" technology. Many low-vanadium steels still have quite good edge retention and are recent developments. There's a lot to be said for economy as a technological advancement, as well as versatility in terms of the array of appropriate sharpening tools being maximized being a performance factor when assessing the overall worth of a steel.

 

[eKretz]

Sintered ceramic stones like Spyderco produces are just aluminum oxide. So I'm curious as to why you keep coming back to them? Vitrified bond stones are ceramic also, it's just what the knife world usually refers to as "ceramic" is taken to mean sintered ceramics. Heck--silicon carbide itself is a ceramic.

Yes, most every synthetic abrasive is a ceramic. Some are graded particles in a binder and some are completely composed of ceramic. Shapton, Naniwa etc. are composed of ceramic abrasive particles in a binder, for instance. Spyderco are composed completely of ceramic.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Yes, "organic bond" stones (resin bonds of various sorts) don't classify as a wholly ceramic stone, but vitrified bonds themselves are ceramic, just not as abrasive as the grains they're binding. Sintered ceramics are wholly comprised (or very nearly--a sintering aid is sometimes used <1% by of composition) of the particular grain type.

 

[PeterS84]

I'm the complete opposite, gotta have the best steels and the best stones.

I feel that lower end steels can be a waste time to invest my best work to sharpen them to a high performing level. The edges just don't have any longivitiy, also I like that I can sharpen because I want to not because I have too. I feel most of the difficulty people have with high vanadium carbide volume steels is not have the proper stones to cut them.

That's why I've been working hard to push stone manufacturers to make higher end stones.

I definitely suffer to make knives out of the higher end steels. It's miserable and expensive.

I'll probably fold one day and just use 52100 and AEBL like Everybody else and cash in.

But for now I'm curious what the limits performance is and I really enjoy the edges I get with the proper gear.

100% on board with this. This is why I only buy higher end steels these days, same for the sharpening gear. Knives in most "common" alloys just aren't interesting to me unless there is a really compelling design component.

 

[StrayRound]

I feel that once your sharpening competency reaches a certain point, ease of sharpening becomes more important than edge retention for most contexts. But that's ultimately a matter of personal preference. I find low-carbide or simple-carbide (chromium carbide) steels to give me the greatest overall satisfaction in the work I do.

Hey, I thought I was the only one that valued ease of sharpening over edge retention.

Everything gets dull and from time to time an edge gets damaged. I like something that is quick getting back to working over a slightly longer lasting edge.

Couple that with the fact that I've recently been going to nothing finer than 320 grit for a general use edge it takes no time to get back to a shaving edge.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Obviously it has to be within reason, but maximizing your tradeoff between edge retention and ease of sharpening generally pays off ample dividends. You don't want to go off the deep end in either direction.

 

[eKretz]

Yes, for most of my tasks, a good carbon steel edge holds up fine.

 

[DeadboxHero]

a lot of Hunters carry a bag of blades so they don't have to stop and sharpen when they drop an animal and need to field dress it.

If they only knew that they could just carry one more highly alloyed steel with Vanadium carbides reinforcing the teeth on a toothy edge they would be better served.

I think people look at these types of steels wrong, it's not that they stay sharper longer, but that they are able to physically cut longer and resist blunting and going completly smooth at the edge.

I wouldn't want a straight razor in s110v (I'd rather have plain carbon) but if I need a knife that doesn't go instantly dull on thick animal hide or breaking down boxes all day then that's what I want so I'm not honing every 5 seconds.


Also the difficulty Sharpening the highly alloyed steels is way overblown.

A $15 Norton fine SiC will do.

Of course It would cost more to get polishing Stones that can cut the Carbides, but people are spending $400 and up for natural rocks that can only cut simple steels.

I'm amazed that people freak out about spending the same amount on a very advanced, high tech stone that can cut Rex121 at 70hrc like it's white steel on a king stone and not dish out.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Obviously it has to be within reason, but maximizing your tradeoff between edge retention and ease of sharpening generally pays off ample dividends. You don't want to go off the deep end in either direction.

I have a testing blank from Bluntcut in 10v that holds its edge for daily use for weeks, but around the kitchen its low RC stainless all the way. For camping is also low RC stainless or carbon steel - it is just plain easier to sharpen and clean up nicks and such.

The higher carbide Powder steels are great, but they are considerably more expensive and while can be sharpened on silicon carbide they respond far better to diamond.

Both types can be dulled by inadvertent contact with stones or metals, one sharpens up far easier and the other holds its edge far longer under normal use. Pros and Cons.

Relative to the OP I have a bunch or Arkansas stones but don't use them anymore at all really though they work well enough. For my carbon steel woodworking tools, my waterstones are so much faster and less prone to form burrs.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Oh I think the prices for natural stones are nuts compared to the cost of synthetics. I think it's possible for natural stones to still be useful for some users in some contexts, but for the most part they're a poor investment if you've got to buy them. They cost more and give lower performance than synthetics do in a whole range of performance factors. The ones I use I found and lapped myself, and only use them as apexing stones on steels that can be suitably cut by them. But if you find one cheap at an antique store or find some stone in the wild that looks to have good properties, it can be worth the low investment in money or the moderate investment in time to purchase or fabricate a natural sharpening stone.

 

[JD Spydo]

100% on board with this. This is why I only buy higher end steels these days, same for the sharpening gear. Knives in most "common" alloys just aren't interesting to me unless there is a really compelling design component.

yeah I'm heading in the same direction that you're speaking of. The reason I launched this thread is because I was beginning to believe that my Arkansas stones were becoming totally antiquated. But I am going to keep them because I do think that they might be good for polishing an edge that is already sharp. I've had the theory that these Arkansas and other natural stones can be great for de-burring, polishing edges and possibly rubbing against other natural stones to possibly change their properties.

It's kind of sad in a way to see them become sort of obsolete because when I was growing up in my teenage years I got a few of the Arkansas Stones that the BUCK knife company was selling at the time ( 1970s) and during that era they were considered great tools for sharpening. And if I get any sharpening jobs ( I do that in my spare time for $$) with older carbon steel blades I'm going to use them. Just like all of my sharpening steels which many people tell me I should pitch because they are no longer usable. I found out that just the opposite is true. but if any of you have more to contribute to this thread that turned out to be far more interesting than I figured then please by all means tell us what you know about Arkansas sharpening stones (novaculite).

 

[Wowbagger]

I'm the complete opposite, gotta have the best steels and the best stones.

I feel that lower end steels can be a waste time to invest my best work to sharpen them to a high performing level. The edges just don't have any longivitiy, also I like that I can sharpen because I want to not because I have too. I feel most of the difficulty people have with high vanadium carbide volume steels is not have the proper stones to cut them.
. . .
I'll probably fold one day and just use 52100 and AEBL like Everybody else and cash in.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !

I'm with you though. As easy as it is to sharpen the good stuff (with the right stones) why the freak would I want anything less ? ? ? ?
The only reason I fool around with all this soft squishy stuff (Wenger / Victorinox, Case and Boker Traditionals I'm look at you) . . . is that I like the handle shape, blade shape or need the specific tools in the multitools knives.

I'm just now reading / catching up on this thread.
For the most part if I can not sharpen it on a translucent Ark it has my interest and if I can I'm passing over it for better steel. An exception is my Little Monster but I only use that on clean fruits and vegetables.

Hahahaha even my woodworking blades, the ones worth using, are A2 steel and better and A2 just polishes the surface of my big O' hard Ark and does nothing for the sharpness of the blade or "stroping" for deburing.

Part of the reason I am reading this thread is I have the hots for a little pocket black Arkansas stone ($15) but the only thing I could use it on is my SAKs and Case knives etc.
How is it for deburing those stainless steels ? From what Josh has told me Shapton Pro 5,000 is much superior even for the squishy steels like these.

((((I still want the stone though)))) ((((I don't know why))))

PS: and this thread sucks . . . what no photos ?
I just look at the pictures.





You can see what my A2 blade did to the stone while merely adding a final polish to an already frighteningly sharp edge on a woodworking plane blade (the shiny area). The entire surface of the stone was burnished like that I just couldn't capture it in a photo. I had to condition the brand new trans Ark stone using a diamond plate to take the instant glaze off.
Oh well the stone is nice to look at.


PS: no A2 was harmed in the making of this film (there was zero black swarf in the pores of the stone). I checked with this hand held microscope.

 

[eKretz]

Arks are really only usually used for that last little bit of polish. Glazed stones actually do a better job for this - straight razor users actually intentionally glaze the stones to get a finer finish and more comfortable shaving edge. My best Ark (a 3" x 10" black translucent) reflects light almost like a mirror. When they're polished up very fine like this you won't see any swarf hardly. 15 minutes of honing might net you a gray smudge if you wiped the stone afterward with white paper towel.

 

[Wowbagger]

Of course It would cost more to get polishing Stones that can cut the Carbides, but people are spending $400 and up for natural rocks that can only cut simple steels.

I'm amazed that people freak out about spending the same amount on a very advanced, high tech stone that can cut Rex121 at 70hrc like it's white steel on a king stone and not dish out.

'ZACKLY !
This translucent hard ark is my most expensive stone and my least used and least useful stone.
I think that's Badabingo . . . the green stick in the green hole.

 

[Eli Chaps]

I often sharpen with a soft Arkansas and find on "softer" alloys, it works extremely well. Hard, black and translucent for me are the honing or fine touch stones. But I more often than not, skip them. The soft Ark and a strop are my typical favorites for good working edges. Showed this recently but it was handy.