Asking for experienced knife makers information on start up.

[Gunner1957]

I am a Veteran, presently living at a Veterans shelter at a U.S. Veterans Hospital in New Jersey. Waiting to have my claim approved (God Willing). I am interested in starting my own knife making business (small scale). Any information / guidence that experienced knife makers are willing to share is greatly appreciated.

 

[Willie71]

try a search here. There have been 2 or three discussions with a lot of great information in the past year. Maybe read through those first, then post any further questions you have.

 

[jobasha11]

Have you made a knife before? A lot of new guys start off thinking way beyond their abilities.
I don't know who originally posted the following but i hope he doesn't mind me reposting it. I find it very useful and insightful like the counts standard reply.

"17+ years of making knives 9 years of being full time, this is my humble perspective and insight.

1.Knifemaking has real health risks. Grinding steel, manmade and natural handle materials adhered with exotic epoxies creates nasty particulates. Even with great dust collecting set ups and living in your respirator, inhalation is unavoidable over long term. Many things that knifemakers use/grind also get absorbed through the skin also like acetone, chromium, aluminum, ect….. I think I have a developed a allergic response to G-10 after all these years.

2.Taxes. Being self-employed/ business owner means you pay your taxes out of pocket via estimated quarterlies, you get to write a nice fat check to Uncle Sam. 4 times a year $$$$. If you actually happen to make any sort of slim profit over the estimated tax for that year, be prepared to pay more on top of what you all ready paid. Good luck getting refunds. Many people run under the table, and many friends and fellow makers are always ready and eager to give you tax "advice". But if you don’t want a letter or a knock at the door down the road from the IRS, and end up like Wesley Snipes, I suggest investing in a solid CPA and be ready to a take a bruising. Audits are stomach churning. Keep it honest, as this is truly the best policy, you don’t want it to come back and bite you in the ass years down the line.

3.Health insurance. Absolutely vital. You will have to purchase your own health insurance, $$$. Or if your fortunate enough to have a spouse that can add you to their plan is the best.

4.Injury. If you suffer an injury or illness that prevents you from working even a few days then your screwed as there is no one there to take up the slack or make knives for you to fall back on. That means no motorcycles, no bicycles, no ice skating, generally no risky or irresponsible behavior to put your flow of production in jeopardy. Bottom line, no output of product means no income.

5.Divorce. Many people suffer a divorce, which in general is not really ever planned. if that happens, any life line to that person that you need to stay afloat in knifemaking is severed, meaning no more additional income or health insurance, possible child support and alimony that you may have to pay out and loss property/house/shop and therefore if your knifemaking business if not self sufficient it will be difficult to be able to recover from that blow. Being a knifemaker and self-employed can strain relationships and your spouse/partner has to be understanding and behind you and have a plan. I lost my marriage over knifemaking.

6.Income. In general, income from knifemaking is spotty and unreliable. Most of society is so conditioned to get a paycheck every week or 2 on the nose. Being self-employed just throw that concept out the window. There may be weeks to months where you have nothing monetary coming in as you prepare knives to get done, waiting on steel, waiting on sheaths, waiting on payment from customers, machinery breakdowns long list of hiccups that interrupt money flow constantly. As we all know knifemaking requires much time and effort even when you already have established skills and products to peddle. That is why one of the goals/grails of individual knifemakers is to strive for consistency in income. Being the only wage earner in a family will be tough.

7. Hobbies that become your job. You will need to live, eat and breath your work to succeed for years. 24/7. Your hobby now is a career and new rules now apply. You just can’t make knives when you feel like it for a few hours every other weekend now you must make knives everyday to keep product rolling, to feed your kids and keep the bills paid. Now it is work. Playtime is over.

8.Sustainability. For any business to succeed you need hard absolute long term goals and direction. Without out a clear direction, ambition, drive, forethought, tenacity, perseverance, lack of consistency in quality your business could wobble. Constantly improving your skills over time, having consistent quality and craftsmanship, being innovative, getting publicity and exhibiting good customer relations will help you become successful while building a solid customer base may take years to achieve. Building a customer base is vital to having long term sustainability and longevity in this business.

9.Motivation. A big enemy of knifemakers. Linked to the dreaded “burnout” Self-employed also means being self-motivated for year after year, is a key to success. Distractions for self-employed people are the bane of the concept. Sacrifice and self discipline are crucial. You have to treat it like a job and a business and set yourself in a schedule and pattern and to eliminate distractions that may pull you from working, like Video games, family, yard work, gym, computers ect….

10.Product. Making knives people actually want to buy.

11.Dirty. Knifemaking is dirty, dingy work. Does your shop have heat or air conditioning? Summers and winters can be harsh with no climate control. Most only see the end result of our hard work, a cool and beautiful knife. The actual making of the knife is not so glamorous and is rather boring and beats the crap out of your hands and back.

12.Alone. Long hours of working alone with no adulations and listings to the radio, so if you’re a social butterfly this may be hard and also distracting (see motivation)

13.Dependants. Do you have a family that depends on your income to stay afloat? If so, this will be a challenge.

14.Frugal. Tighten the belt and learn to like Top Ramen…every day. :barf: Let’s see do I need to order grinding belts, steel, Micarta to make product to sell or do I need to buy a family member a new pair of shoes for school or pay that speeding ticket or pay the county/state business licensing fee or make a health plan payment?

15.Debt. Best to go into self-employment debt free or there is a extremely high chance to becoming overwhelmed with bills and responsibly quickly as knifemaking supplies add up fast and the house payment or property taxes are magically due all at the same time. This is just supplies not to include trying to set up a shop with initial cost out of pocket.

16.Unemployment. Generally, self-employed business owners are considered “unemployed” and because of that we have little or no back-up in case of emergency. So, unlike our counterparts in the job market of employers & employees/companies, if we can’t work for some reason, there is no getting unemployment checks for 6 month or a year while we look for another job. . Being a fulltime knifemaker is a sink or swim proposition self reliant on your own determination to make it a success.

17.Jack of all Trades. Knifemaking is more than just actually making knives, you have to figure out how to run a business, how to make money, how to ship and receive, how to deal with the IRs, how to have good customer relations, how to fix things, know the basics of computers, marketing, phone skills, designing and drafting, CAD work, basic machining skills, planning and juggling various non-knifemaking tasks at once is a learning curve that must be factored in.

18.Lawyer. Wise to have available legal representation and funds for it. What happens if that knife you named the “Undertaker” on a macho whim is actually is used in a crime/defense by someone and now your being called into court to explain to the court why you named it with such aggressive name?

19.Insurance. Do you have business insurance on top of all the other insurance that your currently carry?

20.Retirement. Being a fulltime maker and self-employed now it is your responsibility to contribute to your own retirement fund/IRA since no one else/employer is doing it for you. Is that something you can do on a regular basis along with al the other financial responsibilities? Otherwise, there won’t be much to receive once you want to retire. I have pretty come to peace with the fact that I’ll be grinding until the end.

21.Vacation……LOL! What is that?

Hope this helps not to discourage, but to give an outline of what is ahead and to think and prepare for. Take it seriously, buckle down for the long haul and it can be done.:thumbup:

Nose to the grindstone."

 

[Rhinoknives1]

I am a Veteran, presently living at a Veterans shelter at a U.S. Veterans Hospital in New Jersey. Waiting to have my claim approved (God Willing). I am interested in starting my own knife making business (small scale). Any information / guidence that experienced knife makers are willing to share is greatly appreciated.

First let me thank you for your service to our country and wish you, Gods speed on that paperwork!

Once you get settled, look for Hammer ins and grind ins held by local knife maker associations in your area I am on the other coast so I can help you with whats going on there.

Buy the book, Or they may have it in the Library? How to make custom knives. by Tim McCrieght. and $50.00 knife shop by Wayne Goddard. I suggest you make a few knives with hand files & a small drill press to see if this is for you before you sink $$$ into a 2 x 72" grinder and all of the rest of the stuff. Knife making is really dirty, hot work and I really think those of us that do this full time have a sickness of sorts!

If I can help you?
Just ask and I will do my best.

 

[Patrickknives]

I also want to thank you and hope all works out for you.

Knifemaking is a tough business but doable, I think there is some good advice here. Maybe start looking at what type of knives you can make and that possibly other vets or people you know will be interested in, having someone to buy is more than half the battle. WIth that in hand you can get started. The $50.00 knife shop is a great place to start and I have seen it in libraries.

Please feel free to email or PM me if you have other questions.

 

[12345678910]

How about, make one first before you decide it's your life's work ?









The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V34

The answer to a young student is different than a retired machinist
With members worldwide, you may have a local supplier, hammerin or neighbour.
Join our community;fill out your profile with location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment and hobbies so we get a sense of where and who you are.

Look at the threads at the top of the page.

The basics in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF
http://www.2shared.com/document/hk4wQruA/Absolute_Cheapskate_Way_to_Sta.html
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3622507/Jones-Scott-Jonesy-Absolute-Cheapskate-Way-to-Start-Making-Knives


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694673

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?8og1ix21j9dcz4n

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?02ra4do6xyzayeq
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/cache/articles/nw1/scales1.htm

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Wheeler-s-Steel-*-Stuck-in-the-metal-with-you
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/956343-Damascus-integral-tag-along

Bob Egnath how to http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9435307&postcount=43

BladeForums - E-books or Google books http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Books I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
Clear, well organized, available and inexpensive.

Knife Design:
Think thin. Forget swords, saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Look at hundreds of photos

Start with a drawing and post it, we love photos.
French curves, graph paper and an eraser are vital tools.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bHFtVNs9tWA/TEj5Quiq1ZI/AAAAAAAAAI0/rn2EoHoXpVc/s1600/The+French+Curve.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1147466-How?p=13120810#post13120810

Then a cardboard cutout template & with handles, pins and such.
Use playdough to shape a comfortable handle, good handles are not flat.

How to post a photo
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...AL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums

Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Bob Engnath Patterns in a PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?qgx7yebn77n77qx


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith - A modern book with colour photos - forging - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF Http://www.archive.org/download/elementarymachin00palmrich/elementarymachin00palmrich.pdf

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF http://ia700309.us.archive.org/6/items/completepractic00rosegoog/completepractic00rosegoog.pdf
Right Click and save

The $50 knife Shop-not recommended
This book has a great title, but is NOT gospel. It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench BS
Back when they used whale oil, it was still liquid oil.
Use a commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;
Grocery store canola oil works for some steels like 1084.

Junkyard steel requires skill and experience to identify and heat treat it properly.
Forget Lawnmower blades and railroad spikes, start with a new known steel.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.
Proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo is inexpensive and quench in Canola.

Cable damascus is an advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but 2x72” belt grinders plans are now free on the web.


Videos

Don't be this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEOTtslHARQ

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days. http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days. http://www.howtomakeaknife.net/FreeStuff/SafetyVideo.wmv

Many knifemaking videos are available, some better than others.

The best beginner videos I have seen:
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with inlays, tooling and machine stitching)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
Use a piece of known steel, not a file. This as an example of doing it by hand with few tools.
"Green Pete" posted it free.
Be sure to look at the other titles I mentioned too - spend some time searching.

Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/499...femaking_Basics_-_Make_a_Mora_Bushcraft_Knife

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

Videos for rent,read the reviews, Some are good, some bad, expect to wait months
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dec78RQsokw

Nick Wheeler- Hand sanding 101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4x4QLpfnk

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades ,files, railroad spikes and other unknown junkyard steels.
For the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find Eutectoid steel and quench in Canola oil.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheap & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

Suppliers List
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)

FAQ's
http://www.hypefreeblades.com/faq.html

1095 is good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K
Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 CPM-s35vn Elmax, and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 due to minimum charges.


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench and Motor oil.

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;
The best explanation and classification oil speeds I've seen
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?28197-Hardening-II-Quenching

Grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel like 1084

Brine and water are cheap, and technically correct for "water hardening" steels W1 and 1095 but a fast oil like Parks 50 or Houghton Houghto Quench K are less likely to give you broken blades
If you use water or brine, expect a "tink" and a cracked blade

Don't quench in a plastic pail of oil

Glue – Epoxy
Use new slow setting 30 min to 1 hour, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and seal out moisture.
Slow epoxy is stronger and gives you time to work with it.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive or blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean and no oil including fingerprints.
Use Acetone & Alcohol, or Blasting.
Don't over clamp it A “glue starved joint” is weak when all the adhesive is squeezed out.

Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex
JB Weld-leaves a grey line


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Just use 1084 instead of a file.
spheroid annealed steel is butter soft to file.

Stacy - 10 Tools
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1049666-Ten-Tools?p=11983527#post11983527

Examples of filing jigs
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg
Http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8152684286_312b9fc8da_b.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9iNDRwwBQQ#t=330

Grinders
A professional three or four wheel 2x72 is worth it
In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Entry Level Grinders
Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qfYT_m2Tw0


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.metalwebnews.com/manuals/knife-grinder.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder-buy plans
http://usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://www.wilmontgrinders.com/Pages/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy.html


VFD Variable Speed made simple

Step pulleys are not as cheap as you may think
Maska steel pulleys are good plus shaft, bearings, belt

It all adds up to about 1/2 the price of a KBAC-27D

I like direct drive with no belts using a VFD and 3 phase motor for about $200 over the price of the step pulleys with finer control.

NEMA 1 VFD’s are designed to keep your fingers out and the metallic dust intrusion will smoke it.


Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C,
RPM is up to you some use1700 RPM at double speed.
Make sure it has a footed base for the KMG and NWG, or a C flange face mount for Bader, Bee, Wilton and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with paying $100 for shipping to Canada I save $ on used motors

The 1.5 HP combination is the most common
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.


VFD
KBAC-27D
http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_AC_Drives_Inverters/AC_Drives_NEMA_4X.html
http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbda_manual.pdf
Use the Distributor Locator to find a local source, online sources may be cheaper.

There are cheaper units, but the only VFD I have found that runs a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC-27D

It is NEMA 4, sealed from metal dust

Good community and company support, manuals, hook-up diagrams, photos and settings.
If you buy a bargain vfd, you're stuck with a chinglish manual and ridiculous programming.

I like that I can buy it in person from a local distributor in Canada.

Travis W reports running a 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.

Hookup is simple
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and use safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.

If you can't breathe, nothing else matters.

Wearing a mask and glasses on the top of your head doesn't count.

The minimum I would consider are silicone half masks with a P100 Filter
3M 7500
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...Ox_Uev7qe17zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--&fn=CH7500FP.pdf

and North 7700
http://www.amazon.com/North-Safety-770030L-Silicone-Respirator/dp/B002C08YCW
http://www.amazon.com/North-7580P100-P100-Particulate-Cartridge/dp/B000UH6PSE/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_b.

Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for acetone and glue fumes.
Prefilters can snap over the main filter for longer life.
There are 3 sizes get fitted in person

Shave, also test the every time.

For beards
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Search

This Google page searches BF well.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

Get rich making knives ?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...knife-making-worth-it?p=11980504#post11980504

A shop visit
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1166688-How-to-get-a-shop-invite

V34 March 23, 2014 NW WIP

 

[John Katt]

Thanks for kickin ass and takin names ;0)

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Welcome Gunner!

You will find a lot of good advice here. When you get yourself settled in somewhere, let us know. I bet someone in your area will offer you a shop visit and some knife talk.

Take it slow. No one starts out as a knife business from the get-go. It takes a good while to form the skills to make sellable knives...even as a very small business.

In the beginning, you want to start with files and sandpaper. When you are ready to get started on your first knife build, let me know. A few other makers and I sponsor deserving folks, and we would be glad to provide your with the start-up tools and materials for a beginners knife project, plus HT.

 

[i4Marc]

I would say, see if you like doing it as a hobby before you plan on making it a business. Something you enjoy doing when you have the time can be very different when you have to make the time to do it because you depend on the income from it. And if you depend on income from it you better be very proficient at getting it done quickly and to a high standard. Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[synthesist]

Welcome to a wonderful place. Glad you found us and are here to become part of a wonderful community.

Perhaps you could fill us in a bit more on what you've done already and what you're thinking/hoping/willing to do. Do you have access to any sort of workspace where you're living now?

If we understand your background and expectations we can be more helpful and precise in what we do.

Corey

 

[Hankins]

Pick your Niche or make a Niche Have a PLAN one of my Biggest mistakes. Don't be afraid to charge the right price from the start!
If your a machinist already you can survive
Read all the above
The short answer is give Greg Medford http://www.medfordknife.com/ a call Gregs Cell: 480-227-2399 Tell Amy who you are and what you want to do.
He is a Vet that did exactly that. In 3-4 years he now has 13 employees he did start out as a machinist
He will take the time to talk with you if you let him know your a Vet. Will save you a ton of grief, wasted time and money.
Or call the Strider guys
If you get the opportunity to work for him do it even if it means moving. If your serious he will train you.

 

[LGOP]

This thread is also of great interest to me. I joined the site earlier today in hopes of gaining advice/knowledge on starting this possible venture. I am a Army vet out of Fort Bragg, NC and have spent some time in my buddy's shop. While I haven't done much, the tasks I did do made me feel amazing. Seeing the work become a real life creation was instant gratification. Closest I can explain is the feeling once you mow those perfect lines in the yard... only way better.
I'm currently finishing up my degree in business marketing and have started to develop a business plan. With a newborn son I don't want to just toss a good chunk of my savings at this lightly.

I look forward to learning and have open ears to any advice.

 

[Jim McGuinn]

Wow Gunner you have gotten some great advice!

Thanks for your service and welcome.
Ask anything you want. All knife makers were beginners at one time or another.