Audiophiles i need advice on what to get.

M

megatronrules

Joined
Apr 15, 2003
Messages
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Well Im looking for an audio system. I just want a music system. Stereo with a Subwoofer. I already have a 5.1 setup in the living room. My budget is around 1000-USD. I would like to stay under that though if i can. My brother said to get a good used reciver on Ebay or at a pawn shop. Onkyo,Harmon Kardon, Yamaha were all recommended.
As for speakers, he said Monitor Audio are very good though few have heard them. He also said Klispch are good as well. I want clearity of sound. A super loud system isnt a must. I listen to every kind of music except rap. I dont know if that helps though. I think I will buy used but Im not sure. I also like the Bose lifestyle systems. They are expensive though they sound very clear. Im confused here. Thanks for any help.
 
If you are looking for good used equipment, a pawn shop is a good idea. For receivers/amps, look for either Marantz or Kenwood in the older (non-black) equipment, and for speakers, JBL/Lansing are pretty darn good, as are the Bose series.
 
Add Denon and Nakamichi to the list. You can get them used for around $500 that will more than handle your needs. You never know, you could get lucky. So look out for MacIntosh's.
 
klipsch makes very good Speakers, my Sister inlaw has some that are Literally 20 years old, and they are still loud and very clear.
 
I'm also a manufacturer's representative that visits hifi stores for a living and teaches the sales staffs how all this stuff works.

In my opinion, out of all the brands named so far in this thread, Monitor Audio is the only thing mentioned that most of my dealers would even consider to be a high performance brand in the modern sense of the word. Klipsch and JBL were both top of the line in the 70s but today are devoted to making mass market product. Sort of the hifi equivalent of Ginzu knives. Well advertised and basically functional, but not for the discerning listener. Bose's claim to fame is that their stuff is tiny. They have one of the worlds best marketing departments and a huge (and active) legal department which will prevent me from voicing my true opinions about the performance of their products.

Don’t let anyone tell you that you should buy an old XYZ brand something, because they just don’t make them like they used to. That is certainly true for some of the bigger names like JBL and Marantz, but other lesser known companies have stepped in to fill the void and advance the state of the art. The quality of Hifi available today is better than what was available ten or twenty years ago by a good stretch. It’s like comparing a 1969 Mach One to today’s Mustang Cobra. Outside of collector value, the Mach One doesn’t hold a candle to the current 390 hp Mustang Cobra. The newer car is faster, rides better, corners better, has creature comforts that were unimaginable in 1969 and is overall amuch more reliable car.

There's a lot of missing info in your post. Does the $1000.00 need to include a tuner for listening to the radio or will this be for CD listening only? Is the price of the CD player included as well? What about those old 12" black vinyl CDs, what were they called.....oh yeah, records! Do you need a turntable to playback your old record collection? You also mentioned having a subwoofer, is this a critical item?

Again in my opinion, if your goal is clarity and musicality, I would skip the subwoofer for now and concentrate on getting a good pair of speakers and an amplifier. You can always add a sub later if you feel you really need the extra bass reinforcement. To try and get everything for a grand will leave you with significant compromises in sound quality.

Something to keep in mind; the big companies like Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer, Denon, etc. are generally trying to out do each other by adding in another new feature that their marketing departments can promote, instead of concentrating their engineering efforts on the actual musical performance of the unit. If the brand can be bought at Circuit City of Best Buy, you can count them out as serious performers.

In your post you mentioned getting a receiver. Is the radio part important to you? If not, consider getting an integrated amplifier, which is just like a receiver in functionality, but has no tuner built in. Generally an integrated amp will give you better performance for the money than a comparably priced receiver. Good stereo receivers (that aren't compromised by adding in all the surround stuff) are pretty rare these days. Good affordable integrateds are a little more common.

If you're $1000.00 budget is only for the amp and speakers, and you want new stuff, you should probably restrict your search to a nice pair of bookshelf speakers. You might give up a little bit of the deepest bass with a bookshelf as compared to a comparably priced floor standing speaker, but if you choose right, you should get an overall better sound and you can always fill in that deep bass later by adding a decent sub as the budget allows. Also don't listen to the old adage that says to put most of your money into your speakers. A good hifi system is a chain and is only as good as the weakest link. A great pair of speakers driven by a cheeseball amp will not perform anywhere near their potential.

I'm a little skeptical about pawn shops unless you really know what you're doing. My experience is that the kind of folks who mismanage their lives to the point of pawning their hifi rarely buy real good stuff to begin with and then rarely take care of it. There are exceptions to every rule, but that's my general belief. The used section of your local specialty hifi store might be much more promising however as they tend to be a little more critical of what they take in trade or on consignment. They can also usually demonstrate the product before purchase and make useful recommendations.

If I was to spend a grand on a new hifi, I'd probably look at an integrated amplifier like a Rotel RA02 or an Arcam A65 Plus. Both of these are in the $500.00 new range and will provide about the best sound available in that price range. Don’t get hung up on wattage ratings. Both of these integrated amps are in the 40- 50 watt per channel range but are capable to driving most speakers to satisfying levels and will run rings around something like a mass market 100 watt name brand receiver.

I’d then look at speakers like the B&W DM602 S3 or Paradigm Studio 20s. Both of these speakers retail in the $600.00 per pair range and are capable of tremendous performance from a musical standpoint. They will play relatively loud, have pretty passable bass performance and above all are pretty musically truthful.

If you need to include a CD player in that $1000.00 price package, you will have to start looking at used stuff and will certainly have to compromise a bit in sound quality. At that point, I’d try to buy a new entry level CD player from a decent company, and buy the speakers and amp used. The moving parts on a CD player make it a much more iffy proposition when buying used, where amps and speakers tend to either work, or not work. The performance of the sonically critical digital to analogue converters in CD players also continue to advance continuously, so buying an older CD player doesn't make as much sense sonically. If you need radio immediately and thereby need a receiver, not an integrated amp, that will cause you to compromise the sound quality further. Keep in mind that if you start with an integrated amp, you can add a separate external tuner later for a couple hundred bucks, but you can never improve the quality of your amplifier after the fact.

Now these recommendations are based on your stated desire for quality. If you goal is to re-create a Black Sabbath concert at realistic levels, and you are really looking for quantity of sound rather than quality, disregard everything I wrote. If that’s your desire, go Klipsch or JBL for speakers, Yamaha or Denon for electronics and buy the biggest numbers (watts and woofer size) you can get for the money.

There are certainly many other good brands out there, but these are ones I know to deliver the goods. In the interest of full disclosure I will mention that the company I work for represents both B&W and Rotel in the southwest US, but unless you already own a hifi store, I couldn’t sell you anything anyway. I have no association with either Paradigm or Arcam and in fact they are competitors, but I know them to make quality, good sounding stuff.

Sorry to drone on so, but this is the one area that I feel I’m particularly qualified to comment after doing it professionally for most of the last 20 years, and I hate to see someone spend good money and get bad sound for his dollars.

If you have any other questions or want to know about a used piece, please just ask. If I don’t personally know the unit in question, I know someone who does. FYI, there is actually a Blue Book for used audio equipment called the Orion Guide. Many better hifi shops have a copy and it’s generally a pretty good guide as to pricing on used stuff. They’ll generally be happy to let you look at the Blue Book when considering a used item.

Stereophile and The Absolute Sound are both good magazines to read if you want to learn more about this stuff. Just like the knife magazines, they tend to focus on stuff most of us will never afford, but they also do articles periodically on more affordable hifi.

Hope this helps because my fingers are getting sore typing here.

jmx
 
I STILL recommend Marantz, Kenwood, JBL and Bose...But then, I also listen to Black Sabbath, Jimi Hendrix, and Frank Zappa.:D.
 
Glockmann, I love to listen to loud rock and roll, and the stuff I recommended will certainly get up and boogie. The point I was making is that if volume is the ONLY consideration, then I would go along with your recommendations. But I have the luxury to get paid to listen to this stuff and play with it on an ongoing basis and have heard most every type of hifi that's ever been offered in the US market at one time or another. Everything from Fisher tube based receivers from the 50s to state of the art $250.000.00 Meridian digital theaters (yes, that's for someone's living room sound system, not including the TV).

Kenwood is a perfect case in point. They haven't made real high fidelity equipment since the 70s. Even then there was better stuff available and their old stuff certainly isn't competitive with modern quality electronics. Their current top of the line Soverign series is nothing if not a marketing driven collection of a dazzling array of flasy lights and useless features. The system is so complicated that even the dealers have a hard time getting it to work properly. It's about everything BUT good sound. Do you really need your hifi to connect to the internet (it does, unless you have a firewall).

Sure the old Marantz receivers were beefy, but the transistors that they were built with were slow. The capacitors used in those circuits were all electrolytics which are frequently leaky at this late date and didn't sound as good when new as the polyproplyne caps that are used today.

Have you even listened to a decent modern hifi or are you just blindly brand loyal?

jmx
 
Originally posted by jmxcpter
I'm also a manufacturer's representative that visits hifi stores for a living and teaches the sales staffs how all this stuff works.

If I was to spend a grand on a new hifi, I'd probably look at an integrated amplifier like a Rotel RA02 or an Arcam A65 Plus. Both of these are in the $500.00 new range and will provide about the best sound available in that price range. Don’t get hung up on wattage ratings. Both of these integrated amps are in the 40- 50 watt per channel range but are capable to driving most speakers to satisfying levels and will run rings around something like a mass market 100 watt name brand receiver.

I’d then look at speakers like the B&W DM602 S3 or Paradigm Studio 20s. Both of these speakers retail in the $600.00 per pair range and are capable of tremendous performance from a musical standpoint. They will play relatively loud, have pretty passable bass performance and above all are pretty musically truthful.

If you have any other questions or want to know about a used piece, please just ask. If I don’t personally know the unit in question, I know someone who does. FYI, there is actually a Blue Book for used audio equipment called the Orion Guide. Many better hifi shops have a copy and it’s generally a pretty good guide as to pricing on used stuff. They’ll generally be happy to let you look at the Blue Book when considering a used item.

Stereophile and The Absolute Sound are both good magazines to read if you want to learn more about this stuff. Just like the knife magazines, they tend to focus on stuff most of us will never afford, but they also do articles periodically on more affordable hifi.

Hope this helps because my fingers are getting sore typing here.

jmx
Click to expand...


As someone whos owns products from:
Rotel
Onkyo
B&W
Paradigm

This gentleman knows of what he speaks...Listen

:D :D
 
All of the above are nice suggestions. I will put in my 2c worth.

You may also consider a good headphone setup. It will probably run you around $600 that will have the resolution and timbre of a $1500 and up system. The downside of this is that it would be a very personal setup albeit you can take around with you.

The other suggestion is to go to the world of tubes. Now this is a very expensive hobby and would need a little tender loving care on your part but would very much be satisfying than going solid state. To be within your budget go for vintage amplifiers such dynaco st70 or eico. Both were made during the golden age of tubes in America and would be found on ebay. There are budget tubes going around nowadays such as the norH se-9 but this would entail a much more sensitive speakers compared with a dynaco setup.
 
I guess it's sort of like watches; Some folks NEED to wear a $5000 Rolex, where I do just fine with my $85 Casio G-Shock.

...And at 49 years old, I guess I just can't hear well-enough anymore, (thanks to all those live, LOUD rock concerts [and Vietnam] in the '70's), to not like how those old "powerhouse" stereo amps and receivers sound.

I SWEAR that I STILL haven't heard "better" sound than from an old (1970-'71) Marantz amp, a Pioneer equalizer, a Dual turntable (Empire cartridge), and a pair of JBL/Lansing speakers that I owned, spinning-out "Razzamanazz" by Nazareth...The highs sounded so crisp and the lows so clean that it'd bring a lump to my throat.

(I'd also rather drive an old '63 Corvette than a new 2003 model!).

...But that's just me...:).
 
HI thanks for all the info. Its almost mind blowing all the options that are out there. The $1000 is for a reciever and speakers. I dont HAVE to have radio tuner capablitiy though. I listen to CD's mostly anyway. So the $1000 is for a cd player, speakers, and amp. I can wait a little longer and add some more money if it helps with things.
Thanks again.
 
Go find a place that sells Mark Levinson electronics and Revel speakers. Listen to one of their systems and then decry that you can't hear a difference. At that point we'll know you're deaf.

It's not at all like comparing a $85.00 Casio to a $5000.00 Rolex. We're talking about real sonic differences here, not fluff and percieved prestige. This is more like comparing a $250.00
Citizen qaurtz watch to a $250.00 O&W swiss made Kartago mechanical watch with a nice ETA movement. One is well known and performs well on paper and has more features, the other is not so well known but is a much better value when looked at in the long term. It's the same money, but a different set of values. The Casio certainly has more features, but does NOT maintain the same level of quality over the long term.

It's all about quality, not buttons.

jmx
 
Wow! I'm reading all this with intense interest. Surely there are forums similar to this one devoted to stereo equipment...right?

Scott
 
Ditto on jmxcpter's suggestion for Paradigms.

Many low to mid-range American speakers have very boomy bass, and poor high-end.

I have had a very good experience with my Paradigms. Also check out Thiel and Spica.

I would go into a high-end stereo store with a handful of cd's--get some bebop jazz with a lot of cymbal, some string quartet, some classical piano, some hard rock, and some vocal. A good store will sit you down and haul in speaker brands for you to test.

Listen for how faithfully the speaker reproduces the instruments and vocals. You will be amazed at the variation--and if you aren't, then it doesn't matter what brand of speaker you buy, just get something that fits your budget without distortion at high volume.
 
Good acvice but Spica's been out of business for nearly ten years.

Last I checked Thiel's start at around $1600.00.

jmx
 
Paradigm speakers are reasonably priced and they have fantastic sound. I picked up a pair of Mini Mark 2's about 8 years ago for $250 and they are the best sounding speakers I have ever had. I see them in many of my afluent customer's homes.

I have an old Onkyo receiver and an NAD CD player so I'm pretty happy. I have to admit though, I spend much less time listening to music at home than I used to. In the shop I have a JVC bookshelf system and it really rocks my 13x13 space.
 
Megatron, these Yamaha's are awesome little systems, they don't come with a sub, but have the capability to use one. Stay away from one piece systems (if one component breaks you loose the whole system)

A couple important things to keep in mind.
1. A system is only as good as the speakers and
2. The technology in most high end systems eliminates sounds a human can't hear anyway. So you end up buying a system the dog will really enjoy ;) .
 
There are some good suggestions on here. To me Bose :barf: shouldn't even be brought up in an audio discussion.

Marantz, Denon, or some entry level Rotel would be some of your best choices for power/receiver. For speakers: Energy, B&W, even some of the Boston Acoustics, would be a great place to start looking. If you look around enough, you may even be able to find a pair of Vandersteens out there for a good price.

I was into home audio pretty heavy for quite a while before it just got way too expensive for me to continue. I sold everything and went back to a modest system which I still have:

Energy A3+2 floor standing speakers
Denon DRA-775RD stereo receiver (no surround)
California Audio Labs Icon Mk.II cd player
VPI HW19jr turntable w/AudioQuest PT6 tonearm, Sumiko Blue Point Special cartridge, and Straight Wire Maestro tonearm cables
wiring is all Kimber. 8tc speaker and Silver Streak interconnects.
It all works pretty well together.

For those of you who know the products well (like jmxcpter), you'll recognize the names of what I use to own.

Mark Levinson No.38 preamp
Audio Research Classic 120 tube monoblock amplifiers
Audio Research CD1 cd player
Genesis V speakers (best speakers ever made in thier price range IMO)
same TT setup as I still have
Melos tubed phone pre-amp (forget the model)
Purist Audio Design Auqueous Bi-wire speaker cable
Wire World Eclipse IC's

I miss that system, but like I said, it was getting to be too much. Best system I have ever heard to date was still the Martin Logan Statements w/Mark Levinson 33H's on the towers and a 335 on the sub towers, No.32 preamp, 31.5 transport, and 360s D/A, all wired with Purist Dominus cables. :o :o :o It was heaven.
 
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