Axis AFCK

Axis locks, or locks similar to, such as Arc locks and Rolling Locks, are not only quite strong, they are quite strong consistently. Liner locks are not. Liner locks are inherently unreliable, or inherently inconsistent in their reliability, because of their design, and their manufacturing tolerances. Does one need to wait for a life threatening situation before one knows his liner lock will "hold" in stressful circumstances?

Let the owner of an Axis lock, or similar design, account for proper grip placement that will not put his fingers, or life, in jeopardy. It is considerably safer than assuming the questionable liner lock will deliver life-saving performance, and not fail under mechanical duress.
 
if ya think the rolling lock is so great and locks consistantly, i suggest ya go to the REKAT forum and check out all the failures of rolling locks on SIFUS, etc - ya wont believe it - wait till a 5.5" blade sifu shuts on your hand and ya wont forget it - i didnt - yes i sent it in to REKAT, and now it works fine, but i have talked to more than one person whos sifu locked great one day, failed the next, passed spine whack if hit high on blade, failed if hit low, and vice versa, on and on ad nauseum - imho they aint the greatest lol

my A#1 EDC carry knife is my crawford kasper ti folder, a liner lock - there aint nothing wrong with liner locks IF properly/well made - my #2 is my AFCK 800S, never any probs w/either

i agree with CJ 100%, nothing wrong with liners

sifu


PS to komonder - you REALLY REALLY need to go the the REKAT forum and check up on rolling locks lol before you sing there praises
 
I've been hopped up about and Axis lock AFCK, but now that CJ has brought it up, that has dampened my enthusiasm quite a bit. I has a Sifu close on me while I was doing some solo training. Somehow my hand managed to release the lock. I will never own another. I guess I am going to take a wait see attitude on the Axis AFCK. I am happy with the current AFCK II, so there's no rush for me now.
 
Sifu,

Noticed I made rolling locks last on my list. Although I am aware there have been some issues with these locks, I wasn't aware they are as bad as they appear from these complaints. The point is, for every rolling lock that closes on a hand, several more liners are expected to do the same thing. I said "consistently" in regards to reliability, and the frequency of lock reliability with Axis style locks is still greater than with liner locks. By far, I would say.

Dirk,

Get a 710 Axis lock, and don't let anyone tell you differently. It beats a liner lock ANY day. I would feel safer with my 710 in a crisis than I would with my rock solid Sere 2000, which is about as good a production liner lock one could hope to own.
 
That really blew my mind!
For a long time I have believed that the liner lock is about the worst lock for a defensive folder. Although they are strong, they have a tendency to realease under spine presure or impact ( not that I go around beating on people with the back of the blade in tactical situations, but what about a palisoot (hooking) type of application?).
Now that I think about though, it's about the only common lock type that doesn't have a lever, switch, bar to press accidentaly. It seems to be a tradeoff between reliability and security. I don't know what to think now. What about spyderco's compression lock?
It is basically a liner lock on the other side of the handle. It doesn't seem to be as failure prone, since it takes deliberate sideways force (just like a liner) to disengage. here's a diagram:

http://www.spyderco.com/education/a...2+AM&mscssid=JLV80DBUM23C9JP2UHLQUN9C2BV64VB0

Thanks Chris, this has been a very eye opening thread for me.
 
That's the knife, so what I said about the Axis is what I mean.
Just a quick note for you guys, in order to preclude any unprofessional statements in the future by me, that is considering I can be provoked. I have nothing to do with benchmade products. I designed the AFCK, it was not perfect, and they did not do everything I wanted but that was it. benchmade shortly thereafter demonstrated an undesirable business ethic that was rather disappointing. I even represented Mr. Emerson on one occasion because he felt they were about to do the same to him. I gave these people the opportunity to be stand up they chose not to be, end of story.
I was young and naive and not very experienced in the ways of some business practices, c'est la vie.

GPB...........Thanks for the words.

On the other linerlock issue, you bet the framelocks are a neat design. If scales do not protect the liner you do have to be careful.
Please remember everything is relative, these devices have to be made properly and handled the same or anything can fail.
Also not everyone handles the knife the same so I wouldn't expect everyone to have the same results.

This reminds me of a saying an old biker told me while I was doing an undercover job. He said, "it's a good thing we’re all not the same, if we were, we'd all be after the same old lady."
 
Your welcome.

Yes, I have discovered my Sebenza lock achieves more bite on the blade than any other knife I have ever owned (this would include Benchmade's, Lightfoot's, Emerson's, etc.)

I noticed the tork of my extremity and its index digit naturally force the lock to stay engaged in the saber grip. This is not to say the tork moves it, because it doesn't, this lock is very secure. The point is that only in an awkward counter clockwise torking motion (I am strong right), or the slap of an object to the inside of the lock, is there seemingly any chance of dislodging the lock. This seems to be difficult even when....very carefully...."trying" to do it. Allbeit strength, inertia, momentum and "things" are very different in a real fight.

Realizing in a fast, hard, dynamic engagement, far wierder things have happened, but the Sebenza integral frame lock is seemingly the best I have owned so far in terms of its "strength", and "necessity of angle" (pressure inside to out on the lock) for dislodging. I would much rather rely on these "angles" and a "pressured hit", than a forward thrust "compressing" an "axis lock" to the rear, disengaging the blade. This seems FAR more likely in the REAL WORLD. Then again, I haven't ever engaged blade to opponent and cannot, by any means, speak from experience. Just using the primary weapon to analyze it, and the motor trials to hypothesize.

Frankly, I would rather engage with a fixed blade, but if the folder was all I had, the Sebenza would be the choice.

Haven't owned an AFCK and don't mean to detract from it as the thread topic, but it seemed this thread evolved into a discussion about folder "locks" in general.

Out.
 
I like the Axis lock, and in spite of all the ballyhoo, my favorite folder is a liner lock. The frame lock, however, is the one I have the most faith in. My two frame locks have the most positive lockup of any knives I've seen, and I like the simplicity of design (K.I.S.S.:p), plus the fact that your grip reinforces the lock.

GPB,
How can a forward thrust disengage an Axis lock to the rear? The only way to stress the lock bar would be with pressure to the spine of the blade. I would think that a forward thrust would stress the stop pin, and perhaps to some extent, the pivot.
Not sure I got your meaning:confused:
 
Thanks for asking Owen. My point was that if any digits are resting near the front of the axis lock, or if your thrust enters a target area and somehow gets pressure on it, it could force it back, as this doesn't require a lot of pressure, and disengage the blade. It is probably not likely, but as Chris could attest, things that can go wrong have a tendency to when it get's thick.
 
Thanks for the clarification. For some reason I thought you were talking about stressing-breaking or displacing-the lock bar.

I started to say that I could see your point (about disengaging the lock), but that it bordered on impossible, IMO. Then I remembered that I'm only looking at one model (I've had five, but am down to one right now), in my hand. I think when we refer to the Axis lock mechanism, we have to remember that we're talking about a bunch of different knives, that come in different shapes and sizes, and that people come in different shapes and sizes, and might hold those knives differently, too.
Makes it hard to make a blanket statement, or even argue about (dang it:p), but it made me look at it from different angles.
Sitting here playing with a 710HS, I tried gripping it with the thumb by the side of, and perpendicular to the handle (also a natural grip) instead of on the thumbramp, and immediately saw what you were talking about. A thrust with the hand in that position could indeed disengage the lock.

So.....you're right:)
 
First let me say hello Mr. Caracci. Nice forum ya got here. Thanks for letting me visit.


I have always thought the bar on the axis knives should be resessed.

If you had custom scales made*, thicker ones that had the bar resessed, would that solve the accidental release problem?

I know I have personally beat the hell out of my 710, and have had no lock problems at all.

* I can only imagine that scales would work on the models that have a full liner, like the 710, 730 and similar.
I can not figure out how it could be done on models like the 720, 721, or 722, though I would love to have my 722 done up right.

Thanks in advance for any replies.
 
Good forum here. There is a good deal of liner-lock "bashing" that goes on here in general.

All those who adhere to that philosophy: talk to Bob Terzuola. His knives are among the most respected liner locks out there.

I'm not saying that there are other great locking systems available, but the constant belittling of the great classics starts to get worn out after a while.
 
agree w/knifenerd too, lotsa good handmades around w/liner locks, eg crawford, emerson, terzuola, etc - the only liner lock i have ever had probs w/was a cheap CRKT kasper, never a prob w/any of my other ones - have i been lucky? maybe, but its hard to argue w/success, i think liners are ok, if properly made/executed on a quality knife, imho anyway


sifu
 
I buy mostly liner lock knives. The first knife that really turned me onto knives was a CRKT M16-04. I had played with the BM titanium blade CQC7 when I was 15 and I thought "Now this is a knife." As much as I see the liner lock bashed on the general forums, I'll still keep on buying them. For the use it is designed for, it will always be the best.
 
Originally posted by OwenM
Sitting here playing with a 710HS, I tried gripping it with the thumb by the side of, and perpendicular to the handle (also a natural grip) instead of on the thumbramp, and immediately saw what you were talking about. A thrust with the hand in that position could indeed disengage the lock.
Click to expand...
Owen, I was trying to replicae this test, not that I wanted to cut myself ;) Anyways, I am not sure I understand how exactly this[accidental release] could happen, having your thumb on the lock and pulling the blade back?

P.S. To be honest I'm quite surprised :) I've seen failure reports here regarding everything, except frame and axis locks. And liner locks were always on top of the list, practically every brand including MT MicroBar... Go figure...
 
It's not a lock failure. I've never seen or heard of a lock failure on an Axis lock. Like you said, it's an accidental release.
The blade is going forward, like you're ramming it into someone. You know it's going all the way in. Grip the knife real tight, and push your thumb back. The lock disengages.
Does it matter? I don't know. With a 710HS you've got four inches of blade in someone. It's not going to close on your hand. The lock's going to reengage when you yank it out, anyway. Especially if you're twisting it, or jerking down, or to the side-assuming you're twisting toward the edge, and not away from it.
I don't think it's a problem, but I understand Frank's point about the possibility of the lock disengaging after going through the motions.
It can happen, as I found out.

A liner lock getting torqued or disengaged can happen to. It's weaker than an Axis, and depends on a precise fit to even function at all. It's not the end all answer, either.

Like I said earlier, I'll take a frame lock over either, any day, but it isn't perfect either. All folders are a compromise. I know-stating the obvious...
 
Chris,

Originally posted by CJ Caracci [/B]
Click to expand...
if the Axis is the one they showed me then you can bet your LIFE it can easily close by accident by your fingers inadvertently hitting the release.
Could you elaborate a bit on this one? The only way to release axis is to pull back that release, from what I read in this thread the only way I see this happening is when pulling knife with the thumb on the release, but as Owen noted that assumes the blade is in some medium at that time. What am I missing then?

What other kind of locks does Mr. Emerson use?
The best to my knowledge none.
I wonder why?
Me too. However there can be more than one reason to that. You have to invent a new lock that is better then the existing one, and then put it into production. Price and marketability are of a significant importance as well. EKI is a business after all. E.g. the reason EKI doesn't want to use thicker liners on the ESM is the increased cost to the user, apparently to them as well, at least that's what they say.
 
Gator, you sure like taking statements out of context and using them to bash EKI.
Way to go :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Phillip
Gator, you sure like taking statements out of context and using them to bash EKI.
Way to go :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Do me a favour, which one was "taken out of context to bash"?
There's a thread, there's a quote from EKI representative, saying that. Why am I bashing?
 
Originally posted by CJ Caracci

What other kind of locks does Mr. Emerson use?
I wonder why? He uses the liner lock, because for real operators there is nothing better, yet.
That is why real operators like his product.
Click to expand...

Gator, read the above quote and then compare it to your's. Get back to me when you get a clue.
 
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