Baby Browning or Seecamp?

W

Westflorida

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I am considering nuying a "pocket-pistol". Can anyone who has experience with these pistols let me know there opinion?. I realize I will need to buy a used Browning if I go with it.

Thanks, Steve
 
I have two of them, and I think that it is the best pocket pistol ever made.

Just my opinion. If you have not looked at them, I highly recommend pondering the possibility.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
25ACP is a last ditch pistol IMHO. I think I would rather have a good knife or 22lr NAA mini-revolver personally. I do have a NAA 22 Magnum mini-revolver which is really cheap (at least it was at the time) and packs a good punch. It takes some skill (more then a full size pistol) to work it effectively as do all small pistols.

Unless you have really small pockets, there are a lot of other pocket pistols to choose from.

An original Baby Browning is a work of art. The Bauer clone was issued back east (Connecticut?) as a back up pistol to their state troopers. Few people would advocate carrying it as an only pistol unless there are mitigating circumstance such as physical disability.

The Seecamps are becoming available at reasonable prices but, I think they are still silvertip only pistols. Other rounds are not reliable based on experience a long time ago.

You can up-gun these days without getting into a larger pocket pistol. The Kahr's are pretty small and pack much better ballistics for anything you may have to shoot.

You don't mention what the pocket pistol is for so, if it's plinking and target shooting only, then almost anything will work. If you want something to stop people or aggressive animals, please consider the abilities of the round against that target. You may kill a mean dog eventually but, if don't put it down quickly you may be in serious trouble. Where I live, Meth heads, drug smugglers, mean dogs and, Mountain Lions are the primary aggressive threats to life. YMMV but, I carry a Glock 20. If I am concerned enough to legally carry a concealed firearm, I need one that will work against the threats I am likely to encounter.
 
Be serious carry a 9mm or 40 .The smallest Kahr is very small and light yet is a serious cartridge. Well worth the money.
 
Although the Seecamp is a .32, it's still way underpowered for REAL defensive carry. Get yourself a Glock 27, and a good IWB holster. I can carry mine under a T-shirt, and no-one knows its there, and I have 11 shots of .40 cal. 155 grain Federal JHPs to defend MY life with.
 
Do you really need a gun quite that small? That is something to think very seriously about; you can get much better guns if you're willing to accept a little more size.

A lot of different companies have made guns after the Baby Browning design, some strictly by Browning's original blueprints, some with variations. The original is so small you are likely to have difficulty finding a way to grip it that enables you to hold on well enough for reasonable accuracy yet without touching the slide. If the slide touches your hand at all on recoil you're likely to get a stovepipe jam. The light firing pin can be unreliable with hard primers, too, but that's not much of a problem these days; civilian ammo with soft primers is readily available now.

The Francaise is a more reliable gun in the same caliber and only a tiny bit bigger -- if you can find one. They can't be imported since the 1968 Gun Control Act and no US manufacturer has ever used the design.

You can learn to use a Baby Browning effectively but it will take a lot of practice. You'll have to find a way to grip it that works for you and train hour after hour until you can acquire that grip every time. Then put in hours of target practice until you can make head shots reliably. It's not the near-useless last resort most people will tell you it is -- IF you practice enough. Of course most don't....

I have no personal experience with the Seecamp. It's a trigger-cocking-only ("double-action-only") design and it's not designed to be disassembled for cleaning. It is designed to use only Winchester Silver-Tips and the magazine is too narrow to take hardball. Those are the reasons I have no personal experience with it....
 
I always love the people who declare, "I wouldn't be caught dead with a gun smaller than a .45."

That's probably true. You will probably be caught dead with NO gun because you left the old iron tumor at home. A gun that is to large or to heavy for you to carry is of no use no matter how impressive the caliber. It does you no good sitting at home in the safe.

On the other hand, a small caliber, small form-factor gun that you will carry is better than no gun at all.

When I had my CHL class years ago, the instuctor presented a slide that showed that something like half of the CHL-holder self-defense use of gun incidents in the US are done with .22, .25, and .32 and that most of the other half are 9mm. For all the folks who like to brag about 'em, .44 and .45 just didn't make the cut. Why? Because 9mm is the most common caliber by far and .22, .25, and .32 are the guns people actually can and do carry.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone, I think I will either go with the Seecamp over the Baby Browning or some other compact gun, Either a .32 or a 9mm.

P.S. Seecamp does not suggest the use of Winchester Silver-Tips in their Seecamp's any longer.

Thanks, Steve
 
Oops -- sorry if I'm a bit out of date. I haven't been haunting the gun forums for a while....
 
You might want to look into a Keltec (.32, .380 or 9mm) or a S&W J-frame revolver in .38.
 
You can choose the .32 if you must, but the .380 is much more of a round.

The defensive standard rounds add 30 grains of weight, about 200 fps increase, penetration increase of about 3", including through denim covered ballistic gelatin, AND about .15 increase of expansion.

I got these figures from a number of websites with defensive round ballistics charts, searched as a result of this thread, YMMV.

I have been reading magazines, talking to police officers, pro shooters, and manufacturers at SHOT for the last 8 years, and the general consensus given to me is that the MINIMUM reliable defensive round is .380, with an overwhelming preference for 9 mm.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Gollnick said:
I always love the people who declare, "I wouldn't be caught dead with a gun smaller than a .45."
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Well, actually I carried a 10mm not a 40S&W so your argument holds no merit in my case.

That's probably true. You will probably be caught dead with NO gun because you left the old iron tumor at home. A gun that is to large or to heavy for you to carry is of no use no matter how impressive the caliber. It does you no good sitting at home in the safe.
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On that point we have some agreement. People spend hundreds of dollars on a pistol, lots more on ammunition and the CCL class but, skimp on the holster. If you are going to use a $5 piece of crap holster from Wal-mart you need a small pistol that weighs nothing. A good holster allows you to comfortably carry a heavier pistol. Most people don't try enough holsters to find one that really works for them so, they end up with something that doesn't work well like a S.O.B. model from someone like Galco. In my case, once I found the Bianchi PDQ, I found the perfect combination with my Glock Model 20 and full power 10mm ammunition. Sure, it's overkill for some situations but it is just right for most situations were I live and travel.

On the other hand, a small caliber, small form-factor gun that you will carry is better than no gun at all.
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For someone physically fit with the right mindset, I'll stick with my preference of a good knife over a 25ACP Browning. Look at documented shootings with that caliber and you will see why I avoid it. A 22lr is a better choice IMHO.

When I had my CHL class years ago, the instructor presented a slide that showed that something like half of the CHL-holder self-defense use of gun incidents in the US are done with .22, .25, and .32 and that most of the other half are 9mm. For all the folks who like to brag about 'em, .44 and .45 just didn't make the cut. Why? Because 9mm is the most common caliber by far and .22, .25, and .32 are the guns people actually can and do carry.
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First of all, do you have any current statistics to support that statement?

There is merit to a certain degree with the smaller calibers which were widely available in cheap pistols years ago. Sheer numbers used though does not make them a superior choice. You have to look at the actual factual reports of shooting incidents to have any real validity with that statement.

If I skip a 25ACP off someone's skull who then takes a rock/baseball bat/etc. and beats me to death, I may turn out as a positive hit in that weak statistic but, a superficial look at the actual incident would reveal a much different story.

People don't seem to have any trouble carrying a pager, a PDA, a Blackberry, and Cell phone so, why is it so difficult to carry a small 9mm pistol? For some people like myself, a full size pistol is really no different then putting my wallet in my pocket and making sure the electronics are on board when I leave the house each morning.

Further, if you look at trends in law enforcement, they are generally going with a larger caliber pistol then years past. Initially, the 9mm double stacks were all the rage but, today the street has proven the 40S&W and 357SIG to be better choices. All you have to do is look at the hips of uniformed officers and look online at the purchase reports and sales statistics. Granted, a full size H&K USP or SIG P226 probably is not a reasonable choice for civilian concealed carry but, all those duty "arms" have compact cousins meant for CCL and under cover work by law enforcement.
 
Sid Post said:
A good holster allows you to comfortably carry a heavier pistol. Most people don't try enough holsters to find one that really works for them so, they end up with something that doesn't work well like a S.O.B. model from someone like Galco. In my case, once I found the Bianchi PDQ, I found the perfect combination with my Glock Model 20 and full power 10mm ammunition.

why is it so difficult to carry a small 9mm pistol? For some people like myself, a full size pistol is really no different then putting my wallet in my pocket and making sure the electronics are on board when I leave the house each morning.

All you have to do is look at the hips of uniformed officers and look online at the purchase reports and sales statistics. Granted, a full size H&K USP or SIG P226 probably is not a reasonable choice for civilian concealed carry but, all those duty "arms" have compact cousins meant for CCL and under cover work by law enforcement.
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The thoughts, ideas, and experiences that you are posting, have validity.

Like Mr. Gollnick, the majority of my legal carrying experience is in the Pacific Northwest. I do not pretend to know what the carrying environment in Florida is like.

Couple of points, geographically, and legally different.

1. If your weapon becomes exposed, butt, trigger guard..., for some reason, in Seattle, WA, and someone complains, you can be charged with menacing.
2. Many police officers do not know crap about the weapons that they are carrying. It is a tool, like a flashlight or a baton. I know, and am friends with around 10 police officers, including my uncle. I had more knowledge about firearms, use, ballistics and care my first year OUT of the U.S. Navy, than any of them have to this day. Why? Because I dig firearms.
3. It is hard to carry a fullsized firearm day in and day out, regardless of the holster. If you are a big, plus sized person, sure, no problem. I am 5'6", 160 lbs. Real estate on my bod is at a premium. For smaller dudes, smaller guns make sense. My EDC firearm from 1994-1996 was a Taurus 38 spec 5 shot revolver. Now I have a choice of the two Mustangs(.380), a C&S Adventurer(.45) or a S&W model 65 .357. I go with the Mustang hands down.

I don't do Kahr or Glocks. If WestFlorida likes the Glock manual of arms, I endorse it 110%. Get one, learn how to shoot it very, very well, and carry it with nary a care.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I frequent a couple or three of the gun forums on a semi regular basis. Many guys really seem to love the little Kel Tec 32's and 380's. And I mean they love them. There's almost like a cult following with these little guns. They're small, light and for the most part, reliable and accurate to boot. It's kind of tough to imagine a better carry gun than a 380 auto with six or seven rounds available to you in a package something like 5"X3" or less, flat as a pancake and weighing less than 10 ounces all loaded up. Just check 'em out. Can't speak from personal experience, but too many guys just seem to love them.
 
i edc a kahr P9 or PM9 daily, imho the poly kahrs are the best edc guns around hands down. glock 26/27/33 runs second, in a major calibre anyway. anything bigger/heavier gets tougher to edc fast. used to edc a SIG 220 or a 1911, then went to the glock 27/33, then finally got the smaller glocks then the kahr, and for ease of carry the kahr is easily the best. i trust the 9MM with modern loads my self, if i didnt i would still be packing the 1911 (nothing against 1911s, just a big/heavy gun, never liked the alloy frame ones either, the steel frame does get heavy after a few hours/days/weeks.)

i would get the seecamp over the baby browning, just a more modern gun, of course the keltech .32 is imho better than either one and cheaper to boot. the KT .380 would be a good one too but have heard of too many jam probs.but the seecamp is a much better pistol than the baby, imho anyway.
 
One of my handguns is a Bersa 380, not as small as a Keltec or as light. Just another choice I`ll throw into the mix. Just purchase some Corbon HPs and feel safer.
 
Between the two, the Seecamp is the better choice. The Browning is not safely carried with a round chambered. I've carried Seecamps (.32 and .380) since 1989. They are easily stripped, and the newer CNC manufactured pistols will shoot most any round of the proper overall length. The Gold Dot is currently the best round for the Seecamp. The Silvertips were changed a few years back to a harder bullet construction (no longer aluminum jacketed) with a nickel plated copper jacket. The new production has some documented reliability problems in the LWS-32.

I bought my last one (of four) new, for under $375. They are not everyone's cup of tea. I find it much easier to conceal the Seecamp than most any other pistol. Seecamp has a new website www.seecamp.com that answers a lot of questions. A Seecamp carried every day without fail is much better than another larger pistol left at home. It is much smaller than most think.
 
JB in SC said:
A Seecamp carried every day without fail is much better than another larger pistol left at home. It is much smaller than most think.
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I've carried a .32 Seecamp for over 10 years. Simply stated, if I am awake and dressed, I have my Seecamp with me. I've discussed "mouse guns" with many "experts" over the years, and when they ramble on and on about the larger caliber guns being the only guns they'd ever carry, I ask them one question - are you carrying that gun at this very moment? Invariably the answer is no.

I've carried other guns as well - a Kahr MK9, S&W Titanium .38 caliber Model 342 snubbie, Glock 23, Sig P239, NAA .22LR and others, but the only gun I always have with me is the Seecamp.

Remember the first rule of gunfighting - HAVE A GUN! My advice is to get the most reliable, most powerful gun that you will have with you at all times.

View
 
Kohai999 said:
2. Many police officers do not know crap about the weapons that they are carrying. It is a tool, like a flashlight or a baton. I know, and am friends with around 10 police officers, including my uncle. I had more knowledge about firearms, use, ballistics and care my first year OUT of the U.S. Navy, than any of them have to this day. Why? Because I dig firearms.
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Assuming the sidearms where not chosen for political and bureaucracy reasons, duty firearms are generally selected by the few police officers who are proficient and qualified to do so. I to have run across police officers who did nothing but qualify with their sidearm as they do with their car. These officers generally are not the ones picking sidearms for an entire department.

3. It is hard to carry a fullsized firearm day in and day out, regardless of the holster. If you are a big, plus sized person, sure, no problem. I am 5'6", 160 lbs. Real estate on my bod is at a premium. For smaller dudes, smaller guns make sense. My EDC firearm from 1994-1996 was a Taurus 38 spec 5 shot revolver. Now I have a choice of the two Mustangs(.380), a C&S Adventurer(.45) or a S&W model 65 .357. I go with the Mustang hands down.
Click to expand...

You and I are essentially the same size. Yes the Glock 20 is big and heavy. It will outline with its square edges if you are not careful. So far, that hasn't been a problem for me personally. Part of it is mindset though. And yes, I took it with me everywhere it was legal to do so. Generally, that was on at the Texas state line when entering and off when leaving. Now that some of the nonsense has eased it isn't so difficult to stay legal, however staying in one jurisdiction still helps :)
 
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