Ball Bearings vs Phosphor Bronze Washers

Lenny

Lenny

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OK, I think I know a bit about this subject, but I'd like to know more.
So, what are the benefits and drawbacks of each?
Go!
 
I'll save the search function lecture since you're about as OG as it get's.

I don't own any flippers so I'll leave that to others but my bearing thumbstud Grey feels like it always has a loose pivot vs the controlled action of my Sebenza. I prefer the Sebenza action because I can release the blade sharp side down and it won't hit my finger like the Grey will but there is something inherently cool about the bearing feel.
 
A lot is going to depend on the knife's design. My Sebenza is slow and smooth, but you have to push it closed.

My Rukus 610 is fast. The blade will free swing if I hold the axis lock open.

Both have PB washers, but their action is entirely different. I like both.
 
GermanyChris said:
I'll save the search function lecture since you're about as OG as it get's.
Click to expand...

Sorry, what is "OG"?
And I'll get to all those other threads in due time.
Just looking for more subjective opinions about the 2 systems.
Thanks.
 
Lenny said:
OK, I think I know a bit about this subject, but I'd like to know more.
So, what are the benefits and drawbacks of each?
Go!
Click to expand...

Bbs typically have a better action (not always though) and the smoothest action bearing knives tend to have a freer action than the freest pb washer knives.

Pb washer knives tend to be more resistant to grit getting into the pivot. This means that they tend to be better at resisting dirty environtments.

Neither is better but each is typically better at certain things.
 
I’ve heard (seen) people argue that ball bearings require more care / maintenance because the accumulation of junk in the pivot will hinder performance.

This may be accurate, but I have not experienced this issue. It is possible that I clean my knives too frequently to have encountered the issue.

That said, a well-excuted PB pivot can be almost mistakable for a bearing pivot in smoothness, but it requires a much higher degree of quality control and machining to pull off an exceptionally smooth PB pivot where you can be a bit sloppier and still have a smooth bearing pivot - which is why you can get a cheap bearing flipper with good action and centering, but cheap washer pivots tend to be less smooth and often have centering issues.
 
In my experience, bearings trap more grit than washers. Being a plumber, I'm working around/in dirt a lot. Sometimes the dirt has sand mixed in. I've stopped using a bearing knife for these type of situations. It drives me nuts to have a gritty feeling knife. It got to the point that I'd take a bearing knife down for cleaning after a day's work.
The only drawback I've had with washers is the washer seating to the frame. I've had a couple of knives that felt a little rough only to find out that the washer was turning with the blade instead of the blade turning on the washer. The fix for me was to rough up the frame side slightly so it would seat on the frame.
 
Rather than rehash what has undoubtedly been covered many times over, I’m replying to deliver a reminder of what is damn near always ignored:

Context of your real use.

What often happens in these types of X vs Y discussion is debate over which is objectively better, with arguments based on what if’s.

Also, an important clarification: bearings are fine in dirty conditions. It’s gritty conditions in which the difference matters. For some people, washers are a very real advantage. For most of us, they’re not.

Only you know the reality of your circumstance, and how much pivot system matters for you.
 
Theoretically, washers should do better in dirty environments. That being said, I've never damaged a bearing knife by using it while dirty, and washers can get scratched up and have rough action while dirty. At the very least, bearings are easy to wash out with water.
 
I prefer low maintenance PB washers. Less parts = me happy.

Offer me Nylon vs bearings. That is a toss up . I was blown away by the smoothness of my last Xm-18 non flip.

However , bearings can do amazing things . Call me old school.

I checked out the new RHK pivot system in person. Its cool but over complicates things for me. It requires a pocket to fit the bearings and in return you have a pocket and wicked thick washers if you go that route.

I apologize if I'm headed off track.
 
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Phosphor bronze washers are cheaper, simpler, and resistant to the ingress of particulates. Unless you want an especially slicked up pivot it is not a good trade-off. I prefer a snug pivot and phosphor washers works just as good. It really comes down to whether you want bearing surfaces that roll at the pivot or rubbing polished greased surfaces.
 
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Bearings for flippers. There is nothing wrong with washers. I have Benchmade 710 on washers which is smooth as hell, and no bladeplay at all.
 
Either done well are fine, as evidenced by examples of very experienced and knowledgeable makers use of both.
 
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