Banding (strapping) in damascus

D

DanL

Joined
Mar 11, 1999
Messages
114
I am thinking of using some banding and some band saw blades in some billets. I wanted to know if I need to remove the black coating from the banding, or will it burn off without causing a forge welding problem?
 
I have used that mix before and really like the looks of the damascus because the bandsaw blade is thicker than the banding. As for removing the black stuff first?...I did but am not sure it was neccesary. Try one small billet and tell us what you found out.
 
I'm going to be using some of that same mix myself. Most of the local knifemakers don't bother taking the paint off and their damascus looks great. (However I haven't seen any made from this mix with the paint removed to compare it to.) One local maker actually claims it acts like a flux itself. You can see some of his damascus on page 8 of the February Knives Illustrated. His name is Jerry Grice and the damascus figurals at the top of the page are his. His mix is mostly 1095 strapping (with the paint left on)and pure nickel strips. My thoughts are that it (the paint) mostly burns up and is fluxed away by the borax they use.

I have a question about the bandsaw blades. When I get them from a local wood working shop that has a portable mill they have just been discarded on the ground and have rusted up some. Should all of this rust be cleaned off or is a little surface rust O.K.? (I actually don't think the local knife makers worry too much about a little rust in the mix either.)

So Bruce, do you clean up the bandsaw material completly also?
 
Silent, I'm far from an expert but rust is steel too. I haven't found much difference between the stuff with light rust and freshly ground. AS to paint, I'm gunshy about the damascus. I had so much trouble getting it to forge weld for so long, I clean everything now. I did play with some small hacksaw blades once and didn't clean the paint off. It seemed to weld fine.:confused:
 
Rust is no problem to have on the metal,here where I live everything rusts fast due to humidity and thus all my metal has a surface rust on it anyway.Now if there are any deep pits that is another story.Keep any metal that has a deep pit in it on the outside of the billett or the pit will become a shut as you thin the bar out.You will know that you got a pit welded in the billet after a couple of folds as you will get a blister raise up on the billet when you bring it up to heat,It will flatten down,but won't weld.To fix this either take a grinder like a side grinder and grind into the blister and smooth it out,this works great on random pattern but not if you want a ladder pattern or something like that.The other way is to take a cutoff wheel on the grinder or saw of some kind and cut through the middle of the blister then heat the two pieces and weld from the opposite end of the bar that the blister is at so that way you will weld it pushing the flux out the end.then stack it back together and weld the billett up again and keep going,using scrap metal is really fun but just becarful for the pits..

Now I have a question,Is all banding material 1095....and what steel is in the metal cutting bandsaw blades?
Bruce
 
Hey all,

I have used this mix for several years in my damascus. When I first started I was very careful to clean any paint, rust, etc. off of the steel before stacking. In the years that have past since then, I have just started cutting stacking and welding the stuff and I have not noticed any difference. I have used both the wet and dry methods of making my damascus billets and both work well. I do prefer the dry method because there is no flux to damage the floor of my forge. When using the wet method of welding it helps to weld a piece of 3/16 or 1/4 mild steel on the outsides of the billet to keep the thin layers from bowing when raising to welding temp.
kind of like this;(((()))). If a piece of heat treating foil is put between the billet and the thicker pieces of mild steel then after the weld, the mild steel can be knocked off easily.

Bill
 
How well does this mix cut Bill ?
Boy am I gonna have fun now.I have sent out a few semi truck loads of this mix from the scrap yard when I was sorking for Mom.They have a lot of this from the factories and thus I have allot to experiment with..
Bill what is the dry method of forge welding this mix ?
It sounds interesting.
Bruce
 
Not all strapping is 1095, it comes in at least two grades. The one we want is "high tensile" strapping. It is high carbon steel because it is used in applications that require greater strength than the mild steel strapping gives. So unless you buy your strapping new you would have to quench test all your scrap strapping. An 800 foot roll of 1 1/4 wide high tensile strapping cost somewhere around $80.00 last I checked. I went in with a friend and bought a roll. That's a bunch of steel, around 100 lbs. worth!

Bruce, I hear you about the rust! Here in Tallahassee, Florida the humidity is so bad you need underwater breathing gear when you go outside! And to think that smiths out West have to turn their sprinklers on their work to get that antiqued rusty look!

So light surface rust is no problem in the mix but heavy rust with pitting is a no-no. (That may rule out one of my bandsaw blades which is heavily rusted, it would probably be too much trouble to clean up.)
 
Bruce,

I have been getting very good results with mix. By playing with heat treating methods and using some liquid N2 I can push this mix into the lower end of the High Performance Profile we all talked about earlier. The dry method of welding that I mentioned is a fairly simple method and I excellent results.
To weld your billets using the dry method stack up alternating layers of strapping and bandsaw blades. I like to start with fifty to seventy five layers. Even up the sides and the ends and run a bead or two across the ends of the billet. now get some 18 to 20 gauge mild steel and make a box around your stack of steel. Weld up the seems of the box and completely weld up the end of the billet. Weld a handle on one end. before fully enclosing your box squirt some oil, WD40, Etc. into the box. Leave a small hole in the box for so that no pressure can build up inside the box. Now put the whole thing in the forge and bring it up to welding temp. Let it soak at temp plenty long then let it soak a little while longer. It is very important to make sure that the whole billet is at temp before hitting, squeezing. Now just work it like any other billet and you should get a perfect weld. after about four welding heats the mild steel box will be burnt off. Draw out the billet cut it restack it and weld again. I like to use cut into three pieces so that I don't have my last weld on the cutting edge. I do this because I feel that the last weld is going to be the weakest link in my blade. When cutting and welding you can either flux and weld or stack in a new box and weld as before it's you choice. I do both depending on how I feel at the time.

good luck.

Bill
 
Thanks Guys,I will quench test a piece of the banding that they have been getting at the scrap yard.If the rusty steel is thick enough I just wire brush it off and then I forge it flat again then put it in the billet,Saves steel and also gives a cool grain in that layer.

Bill next chance I get I will try this method,it would definately save the forge from the borax.Thanks..
Bruce
 
I like the sound of the dry welding also! I think Bruce Bump welds up chainsaw chain damascus like that using 2"x2" thin walled square tubing. Until I get my vertical forge built this would be a good method for saving my little forge the wear and tear of flux attack.

I'm not sure I'd be able to get a decent weld on thin mild steel using this 35 year old stick welder I got from my dad though.
 
Yeah I like the dry method and use it the most now if I have several peices of steel or want to make a mosaic pattern. I learned the hard way to not use too thin of box, The end will split out and let air in which in turn lets scale build in some of the layers. Be sure to use about 1/16" or thicker gauge for the box. Also remember to grind all off the mild steel box off as it wont all burn off but instead gets thicker as you compress the billet. If you leave the mild steel on it will show up as grey spots when etched. I like to draw the billet out long enough to cut it into 4 peices and reweld it the wet method. I also put powder metal insde the box to take up spaces that are hard to fit solid steel into. Its easy to tell if the end splits open because the powder sparks out of the forge like the 4th of July.

Bruce Evans and I are working on a knife that I made the blade in a basket weave pattern using 1084 15n20 and 1084 powder steel in a box. Maybe you can talk him into posting the picture I took of the box loaded with steel and powder. He is making the handle and sheath for it.
 
Here it is Bruce B.....
I have to say that this is one awesome looking Blade and when we get it finished you guys are gonna really like it.
Bruce
 
Here are some of the pictures I took and sent them to Bruce E with the finished blade. As you can see the cannister holds all the loose steel in any configuration you decide to put them in. The powder steel is also from 1084 and will fill up any voids that cant be easily filled with solid steel. Keeping air out is the upmost important thing with welding wet or dry. Bill uses wd40 I use a peice of cardboard at one or both ends that will burn any trapped air in the box. Bill welds a handle on one end, I use tongs but have dropped the thing on the floor a few times. A handle is a good idea as the billet is heavy 2"x2"x6" and hard to handle. I also sqeeze it to shape and size with a log splitter from hell design of my own and several dies for different purposes. This one I used squareing dies to maintain everything square to get a basket weave effect. After I draw it out to 4 times its original length, cut it into 4 equal sizes and grind off the remaining mild steel casing. Restack and wet weld the 4 parts back together and draw it out again, swapping dies to keep it square. You can do this several times to make the patterns very small if you like. "Accordian cut" the square bar to show the end patterns on the side of the blade is neccesary next. Its tricky and time consuming but what the heck we have plenty of time right?

i can hardly wait for Bruce E to put the handle on. Stay tuned for the next episode of "The Bruce and Bruce California Knife Project"
 
Bruce E is also making the sheath for this one and will be showing it as a toutorial. Its a nickel silver one.
 
I have finally got my belts in,After the post office lost the first check in the mail and set me back two weeks.Now I have ground out a couple of blades to get my eye back and when I get the handles on them I will be doing my part of this Bowie and also Making Peter Atwoods knife,Bet he is glad to hear that,Finally.I feel whole and complete again,I haven't really finished a knife since Christmas(I am not counting the utility Knife as I didn't grind it properly because I was using dull belts)
YeAAAAAAAA!!!!!!
Will be showing something soon.
Bruce:cool: :cool: :cool:
 
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