Batoning with a knife

G

Greevil Alcatraz

Joined
Apr 3, 2016
Messages
21
Haven't post for a long while.
And i have a silly question.
Does the force of batoning usually greater than steel's fatigue limit?
Anyone who studied physics and love knives can answer my silly question?
 
I've not studied the physics of it, but I've never had the need to baton anything. I've backpacked hundreds of miles over several weeks in mountainous terrain with a 35-40 lb backpack and never had the need to baton a chunk of wood. My knives were a Vic Champion and a 4 inch bladed puukko. IMHO, batoning is the easiest way to break your knife. I mean no disrespect, but IMHO batoning is just silly and not necessary.

Rich
 
*assuming we are talking about fixed blades* it depends , in temperate weather a carbon steel blade should be able to handle that, but the cold makes blades brittle
 
Greevil Alcatraz said:
Haven't post for a long while.
And i have a silly question.
Does the force of batoning usually greater than steel's fatigue limit?
Anyone who studied physics and love knives can answer my silly question?
Click to expand...
Depends on steel , Ht of steel , shape of knife .....etc .I will award if someone can break one of my knife which I use for years for batoning dry wood to start fire in wood stove . .. .
 
Too many variables for a simple answer. What knife, what kind of wood and who is batonning.

A thick piece of 1095 with a hardness in the mid to upper 50s should have no issues batonning reasonable sized pieces of wood if they are not rock hard and filled with knots.

On the other hand if you try to force the wrong knife through the wrong piece of wood and beat on it like a caveman you could easily break many knives.

With the right knife and some common sense batonning is well within the ability of many knives.
 
In my many years of camping/hiking/backpacking, I never needed to baton wood (I always had a hatchet/tomahawk) and I doubt it is necessary now. :rolleyes: But I do understand that some people just enjoy it much as some like to whittle. :) More directly to your question, it is a matter of technique (all knife parameters being equal); the knife must be kept straight and knots avoided are two things which come to mind (e.g. the handle angled below the blade edge is a recipe for tang failure.) :(
 
Any tool can be broken. Axes have been broken chopping.

People have damaged knives batoning, but usually poor technique was involved - pushing down on the handle until the knife is an angled lever pivoting near the handle/blade junction. Hammering away when a knot has been encountered. With correct technique, including using wedges when prudent, batoning is a normal knife use for most fixed-blade knives. MORAs are routinely used for that application, although greater care would be advisable.

Far more knifes are damaged by laterally loading the edge or by chopping, producing impact between the thin edge and the wood.

If you have a better tool, use it.

If you only have one knife in the wilderness, do only what is actually necessary.

Prejudice is silly.


 
Last edited:
Personally I like to baton with a knife but to test it because if I ever actually need to baton with a knife I want to make sure the knife will handle the abuse and I want the knife to break in a controlled environment instead of when I'm actually need it.
 
Thomas Linton said:
Any tool can be broken. Axes have been broken chopping.

People have damaged knives batoning, but usually poor technique was involved - pushing down on the handle until the knife is an angled lever pivoting near the handle/blade junction. Hammering away when a knot has been encountered. With correct technique, including using wedges when prudent, batoning is a normal knife use for most fixed-blade knives. MORAs are routinely used for that application, although greater care would be advisable.

Far more knifes are damaged by laterally loading the edge or by chopping, producing impact between the thin edge and the wood.

If you have a better tool, use it.

If you only have one knife in the wilderness, do only what is actually necessary.

Prejudice is silly.


Click to expand...
Thomas Linton said:
Any tool can be broken. Axes have been broken chopping.
Click to expand...
I've seen wooden axe handles break. Chipped edges on axe heads are easily filed down .
I'd love to see how someone would break an Eastwing camp axe, all metal one piece hatchet.
AO_campers_axe.jpg
 
I'm with the others that have never had the need to baton wood.

I've never even started a fire in the backcountry. I'm not sure if it's a throwback to my days in the Army, or that I'd rather spend the time covering ground and resting, but I just don't feel the need.

When car camping, I bring an axe to chop and split.
 
Why not just get a good small vintage hatchet and not worry about whether or not you've got a knife that can handle batoning.
This is just a suggestion though, and I'm sure someone who does baton with a knife can give you some info and suggestions for a knife.
 
The problem with abusing or misusing any tool in order to test it is that one never knows how many tries it will take to make it fail (if it does). Maybe one or two sessions just weaken it (at an inclusion or a small crack which cannot be seen) and when one REALLY needs it, it then fails. :eek: Just not a good idea. Baton for the fun of it, but have some kind of backup if you are "way out there". ;)
 
bt93 said:
I've seen wooden axe handles break. Chipped edges on axe heads are easily filed down .
I'd love to see how someone would break an Eastwing camp axe, all metal one piece hatchet.
AO_campers_axe.jpg
Click to expand...

A 12-year-old buried blade pretty good in a piece of cord wood, then tried to twist it apart. Blade bent badly. Hollow ground thin blade.

And it is neither misuse nor abuse if done properly, according to makers and other experts.
 
Last edited:
I heat with wood and was always looking at easier/safer ways to split wood (with the least amount of effort-I'm old-fat-lazy). I watched a couple videos on batoning and the light went off in my head. What a perfect way to split smallish wood for kindling. It would be a lot easier/safer for sure. I have a small splitting block beside the stove and wheel my chair over and split some kindling, all while never having to stand up.

So I bought a cheap "no-name" fixed blade for 10 bucks (2/3 off) and it works just great. I smack away on the blade with a 2 inch thick stick and it splits just fine. This way, if I break it (quite likely) I'll buy another even at the full price of $30. Much safer than trying to hold the stick with one hand and splitting it with a hatchet.
 
Last edited:
katanas said:
The problem with abusing or misusing any tool in order to test it is that one never knows how many tries it will take to make it fail (if it does). Maybe one or two sessions just weaken it (at an inclusion or a small crack which cannot be seen) and when one REALLY needs it, it then fails. :eek: Just not a good idea. Baton for the fun of it, but have some kind of backup if you are "way out there". ;)
Click to expand...
Metal fatigue is a real phenomenon. Same principal applies to old airplanes, the wings and fuselage. After decades of takeoffs and landings, you never know when it will suddenly have a catastrophic failure. As far as batonning, I don't think it's as bad as some think. Hard chopping puts way more stress on a knife than using a baton carefully with good technique. And if you are way out there, it's always a good idea to have a backup knife.
 
I'm not sure splitting small wood for kindling (which is just fine, and within any decent knife parameter) is what is generally meant by batoning (though the technique is the same). Splitting small diameter wood is VERY much different from most of what I've seen demonstrated (good technique is NOT common in much of what I've see, particularly the "fails"). Using a small log to smash a knife through a thick piece of wood is abuse, pure and simple; it is NOT what a knife is designed for (again, if you enjoy it, do it, but have backup if you are in absolute need of your cutting instrument). ;)
 
Add another to never needing to baton wood. Also have backpacked all over the US just usually go with feather sticks and my son usually carriers a 2 hawks camp axe. Also lots of national parks won't let you make fire so lots of cold camps made over the years.
 
Batonning is not new. Google froe if you don't know what one is.

Batonning is a good way to make shingles. It gives accuracy and control that you cannot get with an axe. For some types of crafting it can be useful. Crafting is the main reason I do it. It is an effective technique for making nice hearth boards for friction fires.

When fatigued or injured it can be safer than using an axe.

Many makers endorse batonning with their knives and some knives are in fact designed to be used that way. Some people think it is good and some think it is bad. If you like it do it, if you do not then don't. It's your knife.

At first glance batonning looks like it is so easy a caveman could do it. Unfortunately batonning like a caveman is a good way to break a knife. You do not have to watch very many YouTube videos to see how many people are bad at it. Some wood splits easy. That is what you want to baton. Some wood is hard and filled with knots. That is wood you do not want to baton. If you get part way through a piece and the going gets tough then back out and move on to a different piece of wood. You can burn that piece later when you want to burn bigger pieces of wood. A knife is not an axe and don't expect it to be one. It isn't rocket science.
 
Batoning was/is commonly done in Europe for kindling production, and usually done with a billhook or other similar tool. They typically have a hidden tapered tang and yet they hold up to many decades of repeated batoning. There are even some versions specifically designed with such use in mind. It allows for more accurate blow placement, which allows the user to decide exactly how large to make the split pieces. Most knives can be safely batoned. However, the size and toughness of the wood needs to be paired appropriately to the build of the tool and proper technique needs to be exercised.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top