beginner needs help sharpening kitchen knives and pocket knife

[Citizen Snips]

Hello everyone,

I bought a Spyderco Sharpmaker based on reading a number of good reviews on various websites. The only problem is that I can't seem to sharpen any of my kitchen knives or a pocket knife I have with the Sharpmaker.

The first thing I should point out is that these are VERY cheap knives. The kitchen knives are a Farberware set consisting of a chef's knife, a slicer, and a paring knife. The entire set was $8 at Walmart. This is my first set of kitchen knives and my thinking was that I wanted to practice cutting, sharpening, etc. on a cheap set of knives before buying a nice set. I would describe the knives' sharpness as barely functional. The chef's knife can't cleanly cut through an apple in one stroke, for instance. They were never extremely sharp to begin with. I've owned them about 3 years and have tried to sharpen them twice with the sharpmaker.

I'm not sure who made the pocket knife as a friend gave it to me a long time ago, but the handle is cheap plastic so I would imagine it didn't cost much more than the kitchen knives. It is completely dull, both before and after sharpening with the Sharpmaker.

After reading the Sharpmaker manual and watching the DVD, I proceeded to use the standard 20 strokes/side method in each of the 4 block configurations as outlined in the directions. I could clearly see that some metal was being taken off the knives and deposited on the stones, but after going through the sharpening procedure none of my knives seemed any sharper than when I started.

What could I be doing wrong? The method seems foolproof, but maybe there is some detail I am missing. Is it the case that some very cheap knives simply can't be sharpened very much? Were these knives sharpened to some strange angle in the factory that prevents the fixed angle of the sharpmaker from being effective? Do I need to buy the diamond rods? I would be very hesitant to buy a new type of sharpener at this point. With all of the positive reviews the Sharpmaker has received, it seems more likely at this point that I'm either doing something wrong or there is something wrong with the knives.

Alternately, I am close to purchasing a good set of kitchen knives anyway, so if it's not worth the trouble to sharpen the cheap ones but the Sharpmaker would work just fine on a good set, then maybe I'll just forget about buying the diamond rods or any new sharpeners and save that money for the good set of kitchen knives.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Jason B.]

The extended time between maintenance of your blades means the sharpmaker would be best AFTER you reset new bevels. The SM medium rods start at about 1000 grit so major work is simply out of its league. A coarse stone between 100-300 grit is likely needed to establish bevels on your blades so it would be possible to progress to the SM's finer sharpening and finishing grit hones.

Also, counting to a set number of strokes nearly never works. It could take 10 or 1000 passes on a stone to set a bevel, condition of the edge is just one factor in this.

Better knives would help as the ones you have now might have a hard time even taking a quality edge. With that in mind what do you do if the better knives come with a bad edge or it simply comes time to sharpen them?

The SM is a good tool to keep a knife sharp but not the best choice for neglected blades that need large amounts of metal removed.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I have a 5" Farberware Santoku, also purchased (cheap) at Walmart. It was one of my 'practice' knives when I was getting acquainted with my Lansky guided sharpening system. As knifenut alluded to, resetting the bevel is probably going to make the biggest difference in how it may respond to the Sharpmaker's hones. The factory bevels on these knives are usually pretty blunt/thick (probably wider than 40 degrees inclusive), but serviceable for most people's kitchen uses. The thin blades on these accomplish most of the slicing/chopping work anyway, on things like fruit & vegetables.

I do think the easiest and fastest way for a novice to reset the bevel is to use a guided setup. Even something as basic as the DMT Aligner clamp, paired with one or two hones. I have the Aligner clamp, used with DMT's Magna-Guide & Dia-Folds. It's a very handy setup for doing jobs like this. On inexpensive kitchen knives like these imported Farberware examples, the steel is relatively soft & simple (and thin), and will take a new bevel quickly on diamond hones. Something like a Coarse (blue, 45 micron) and/or Fine (red, 25 micron) could do the job pretty quickly. I don't expect these knives to hold an edge extremely long, but at least my Santoku has taken a good, sharp edge, perfectly fine for my typical kitchen use AND, importantly, still much sharper than the original factory edge. And assuming the new bevel is set to something less than 40 degrees inclusive, it will touch up nicely on the Sharpmaker's rods.

Edit:
I've also used guided setups (Lansky, Gatco and DMT Aligner) to reset bevels on some of my other 'cheap' kitchen knives, including an $8 Chicago Cutlery utility knife and some old 'Barclay Forge' kitchen knives (most recently, a cleaver). Surprisingly, they all will at least take a very fine edge, when the bevel is applied under tight angle control with the guided setup.

 

[Citizen Snips]

The extended time between maintenance of your blades means the sharpmaker would be best AFTER you reset new bevels. The SM medium rods start at about 1000 grit so major work is simply out of its league. A coarse stone between 100-300 grit is likely needed to establish bevels on your blades so it would be possible to progress to the SM's finer sharpening and finishing grit hones.

Thanks, that's what I figured.

Also, counting to a set number of strokes nearly never works. It could take 10 or 1000 passes on a stone to set a bevel, condition of the edge is just one factor in this.

How do you know when to stop? Just test the edge and see how sharp it is? At what point do you know (i.e. after how many strokes) you are wasting your time and need to use a coarser stone?

Better knives would help as the ones you have now might have a hard time even taking a quality edge. With that in mind what do you do if the better knives come with a bad edge or it simply comes time to sharpen them?

I would hope that a brand like Henckels or Wusthof's higher end lines would come with a sharp edge out of the box. If not, I'm not sure what I would do. I guess I would need to buy a coarser stone?

When it comes time to sharpen them, ideally I wouldn't let them get to the point of these Farberware knives before I decided to sharpen them. At that point the Sharpmaker should work, right?

The SM is a good tool to keep a knife sharp but not the best choice for neglected blades that need large amounts of metal removed.

It sounds like I need to do either or both of the following:

1. throw the cheap knives out and start with a better set
2. get the coarser stones with the Sharpmaker so I can sharpen duller blades

Is that correct?

 

[Citizen Snips]

I have a 5" Farberware Santoku, also purchased (cheap) at Walmart. It was one of my 'practice' knives when I was getting acquainted with my Lansky guided sharpening system. As knifenut alluded to, resetting the bevel is probably going to make the biggest difference in how it may respond to the Sharpmaker's hones. The factory bevels on these knives are usually pretty blunt/thick (probably wider than 40 degrees inclusive), but serviceable for most people's kitchen uses. The thin blades on these accomplish most of the slicing/chopping work anyway, on things like fruit & vegetables.

I do think the easiest and fastest way for a novice to reset the bevel is to use a guided setup. Even something as basic as the DMT Aligner clamp, paired with one or two hones. I have the Aligner clamp, used with DMT's Magna-Guide & Dia-Folds. It's a very handy setup for doing jobs like this. On inexpensive kitchen knives like these imported Farberware examples, the steel is relatively soft & simple (and thin), and will take a new bevel quickly on diamond hones. Something like a Coarse (blue, 45 micron) and/or Fine (red, 25 micron) could do the job pretty quickly. I don't expect these knives to hold an edge extremely long, but at least my Santoku has taken a good, sharp edge, perfectly fine for my typical kitchen use AND, importantly, still much sharper than the original factory edge. And assuming the new bevel is set to something less than 40 degrees inclusive, it will touch up nicely on the Sharpmaker's rods.

Is this the system you are referring to here:

http://www.amazon.com/ADELUXE-Align...M41S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327270091&sr=8-1

Also how/why would a guided system reset the bevel better than the Sharpmaker using coarser stones? I'm not disagreeing, I'm just trying to better understand the pros/cons of these different systems.

Edit:
I've also used guided setups (Lansky, Gatco and DMT Aligner) to reset bevels on some of my other 'cheap' kitchen knives, including an $8 Chicago Cutlery utility knife and some old 'Barclay Forge' kitchen knives (most recently, a cleaver). Surprisingly, they all will at least take a very fine edge, when the bevel is applied under tight angle control with the guided setup.

Here's the two Lanksy systems I found, would either of these work:

http://www.amazon.com/Lansky-Diamon...ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1327270280&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/Lansky-Profes...ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1327270280&sr=1-1

The first one has coarser stones, the second one finer.

It seems like I will need to spend an additional $30-40 any way I look at it to really get these knives sharp (DMT, Lanksy, Spyderco diamond stones). All seem to involve using coarser stones than what I have. Would these be a worthwhile investment even if I end up buying a nice set of knives later, or are these only useful for cheap/neglected knives?

 

[Jason B.]

Take a look at my Sig line and follow some of the links, the pictures of the edges will help you to better understand what a edge looks like once the bevel slopes meet at a apex.

As for knives coming sharp that will depend on what you know as sharp and what day the knife was sharpened on

What to do depends on budget because if you haven't priced out some of the available tools and knives in a higher quality bracket it can become very expensive. Without breaking the bank I'd take a look into adding a norton combo India stone or for a bit more some waterstones and upgrading the kitchen knife to a decent Gyuto with saya.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Is this the system you are referring to here:

http://www.amazon.com/ADELUXE-Align...M41S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327270091&sr=8-1

Also how/why would a guided system reset the bevel better than the Sharpmaker using coarser stones? I'm not disagreeing, I'm just trying to better understand the pros/cons of these different systems.

That system would work just fine. I actually use the Magna-Guide kit, which is designed to be used with DMT's Dia-Fold hones (which, by themselves, are very good portable/pocket/field hones).

The guided system will eliminate the variable of angle control, which could be a significant obstacle for someone not quite comfortable with re-bevelling. That's why I suggest that option, whether the coarser stones would be necessary or not.

Here's the two Lanksy systems I found, would either of these work:

http://www.amazon.com/Lansky-Diamon...ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1327270280&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/Lansky-Profes...ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1327270280&sr=1-1

The first one has coarser stones, the second one finer.

For the knives you've mentioned, either of those sets will work fine. If, at some future time, you might try some of the newer, tougher steels, the diamond kit would be my first choice.

It seems like I will need to spend an additional $30-40 any way I look at it to really get these knives sharp (DMT, Lanksy, Spyderco diamond stones). All seem to involve using coarser stones than what I have. Would these be a worthwhile investment even if I end up buying a nice set of knives later, or are these only useful for cheap/neglected knives?

I've gotten a LOT of good use out of my guided systems, for any and all types of knives. I still use them pretty regularly, especially in cases like you've encountered here. They are a simple way to put a quality bevel on a blade, that we'd ordinarily expect from the factory, but often don't get. A good bevel on an edge, from the start, makes maintaining that edge so much easier, and with much better results.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Take a look at my Sig line and follow some of the links, the pictures of the edges will help you to better understand what a edge looks like once the bevel slopes meet at a apex.

As for knives coming sharp that will depend on what you know as sharp and what day the knife was sharpened on

What to do depends on budget because if you haven't priced out some of the available tools and knives in a higher quality bracket it can become very expensive. Without breaking the bank I'd take a look into adding a norton combo India stone or for a bit more some waterstones and upgrading the kitchen knife to a decent Gyuto with saya.

Thanks for the links. I still have one question: how do I know when to move from one grit of stone to the next? Is it when a burr is formed on both sides?

 

[Jason B.]

Take away all factors such as grit or angle and just think of the triangular shape that the bevel is before the rest of the knife. Imagine being able to take away layers of steel until each of the bevel slopes intersect at infinity, once you reach the point of intersection the center line of the triangle from the apex is crossed and you begin grinding into the other bevel slope. The crossing of the edge apex breaching the center line of the triangle is the exact point of burr formation. There will be a pre-burr to the main burr of the apex forming so don't quit early, its one of the biggest beginner mistakes.

Knowing when to change grits is a acquired skill that with continual visual inspection you will quickly learn. You take note of the new scratches being made and work to replace the old coarser scratches with the new finer ones. I know, you thought the explanation would be longer

When I sharpen I creep up on the apex for a convex bevel which is 99% of my sharpening or just sharpen the bevel slope just barely kissing the apex to keep burr formation to a bare minimal. When I creep-up on the edge I only actually touch the apex a few times to complete the grit transformation and major burr removal. The micro burr that's left behind on a properly honed edge is removed in the very last strokes on the stone or with a strop. Most choose the strop because removing a burr on a stone is harder than it sounds.

Keep it simple and try to not over think it too much we do enough of that already, we are all failures of the 12 step program and that's why we are here in this special place

 

[Citizen Snips]

I got the diamond stones and an illuminated loupe today. The diamond stones work much faster than the brown coarse stones that come with the Sharpmaker. Unfortunately I have been sharpening the same side of the pocket knife for 1.5 hours and although I can definitely see and feel an edge forming, I still haven't formed a burr yet (i.e. I haven't felt/seen the edge turn over to the other side yet.) I have tried the sharpie trick and have verified that metal is being removed right where I want it to be. Do I just need to keep at it? At the rate this is going, it will take hours to sharpen this knife.

I've also tried to sharpen one of my kitchen knives and I think I've had better luck. On the side that hasn't been sharpened, I can see and feel a very thin line of metal projecting out from the edge. I'm guessing that's the burr I'm looking for? Even still, getting to this point on one side took about an hour with the diamond stones. At this rate, it will take hours to sharpen all of my kitchen knives.

Is there anything I can use that is even coarser than the diamond stones that isn't terribly expensive? I have seen suggestions of propping a separate coarse bench stone up against the sharpmaker stones or wrapping one of the sharpmaker rods in a coarse sandpaper. Would either of those work? If so, what grit/type would I be looking for?

Also, for anyone thinking of buying a loupe, I would highly recommend getting one of the illuminated ones unless you have a very bright desk lamp to work under. Normal room lighting just isn't going to provide the proper lighting to see all the details of the edge. Here's the one I got:

http://www.amazon.com/SE-Illuminated...9544314&sr=8-6

It's working fine so far.

 

[Stark Knives]

Which diamond stones do you have? What knife are you sharpening? There are extra coarse stones too. Wrapping the Sharpmaker rods should work, depending on how rough your edge is, you could go down to about maybe 120 grit if your edge is in bad condition.

Erd

 

[Citizen Snips]

Which diamond stones do you have? What knife are you sharpening? There are extra coarse stones too. Wrapping the Sharpmaker rods should work, depending on how rough your edge is, you could go down to about maybe 120 grit if your edge is in bad condition.

Erd

I bought the Spyderco diamond rods:

http://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-204D...KFBM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1329580213&sr=8-2

I just found this table after some searching:

Apparently I could go with P180 sandpaper, P120 sandpaper, or the DMT XXC 120. According to the table, those are the only things that would remove material faster than the diamond stones. Am I reading that correctly?

 

[Jason B.]

The chart is OK but its not the be all end all, and I don't know if I would base abrasive or stone selection from it.

The SM diamond rods seem aggressive on that chart but reports have it performing like a much higher grit, say 300-400. Size and surface area of the stone make a big difference too, the thin rods of the SM regardless of grit will always seem slow compared to something like a 8x3in or larger stone.

The steels you are sharpening play a role too, not all steels agree with being sharpened on the same abrasive and take painfully long if the wrong stone is used. What to get? I would get a large benchstone. Norton coarse aluminum oxide stone for example, large, cheap, and effective.

 

[Ben B]

With the diamond rods for the Sharpmaker, you should be be able to sharpen your knives just fine without purchasing another system. Re-watch the video and keep at it.
The sharpie trick should help. If it shows you are removing to the very edge, try counting strokes on each side. Light pressure as you get to the finer grits. Slicing newspaper is a good test.
Good luck.

 

[bdmicarta]

I've had a sharpmaker for a long time, and it can take a lot of strokes to accomplish anything.

I bought a smaller DMT stone, coarse/medium, and but a slot in a wood block to hold the stone a couple of degrees more vertical than the sharpmaker. I use it to reprofile an edge, then when I get the bevels cut with the diamond stone I go back to the sharpmaker and it is sharpening just at the tip of the bevel. I can make a knife feel sharp, but I still can't get to the hair-popping stage yet.

Today I was playing with a big CRKT folder that I bought used. It had some chips in the edge so first I held it perpendicular to my not-running bench grinder stone and rubbed it back and forth until the edge was cut back to the depth of the chips. Of course now it was very dull so I worked it on the coarse diamond stone until I got it back to somewhat sharp. Then I worked on the Sharpmaker stones a little bit. It's sharp enough for a big utility knife but I'm sure someone experienced could do a lot better with it.

 

[Citizen Snips]

After a few hundred strokes on each side with the diamond rods and about 50 per side on each of the coarse stones and the fine stones, I finally have my cheap kitchen paring knife sharp enough to where it can cut printer paper pretty reliably and newspaper somewhat reliably. It's not extremely sharp, but definitely sharper than when I started.

I'm pretty sure I was able to form a burr on each side using the diamond stones. I kind of arbitrarily chose 50 strokes per side on each of the other stones. It seemed like I was polishing out the scratches from the previous step, but I'm not positive.

Either I'm doing something wrong or there must be a much faster system out there for dull knives. At the rate I'm going, I would have to spend an entire day and night doing nothing but sharpening to get my 3 kitchen knives and pocket knife to "newspaper sharp", which is still well short of the "scary sharp" levels I have seen videos of.

I probably just need to practice more too, but I'm not too excited about having to spend hours doing it.

 

[eccvets]

im sorry you fell for the hype. I keep telling people not to be suckered in as they suck! oh well live and learn.

Hello everyone,

I bought a Spyderco Sharpmaker based on reading a number of good reviews on various websites. The only problem is that I can't seem to sharpen any of my kitchen knives or a pocket knife I have with the Sharpmaker.

The first thing I should point out is that these are VERY cheap knives. The kitchen knives are a Farberware set consisting of a chef's knife, a slicer, and a paring knife. The entire set was $8 at Walmart. This is my first set of kitchen knives and my thinking was that I wanted to practice cutting, sharpening, etc. on a cheap set of knives before buying a nice set. I would describe the knives' sharpness as barely functional. The chef's knife can't cleanly cut through an apple in one stroke, for instance. They were never extremely sharp to begin with. I've owned them about 3 years and have tried to sharpen them twice with the sharpmaker.

I'm not sure who made the pocket knife as a friend gave it to me a long time ago, but the handle is cheap plastic so I would imagine it didn't cost much more than the kitchen knives. It is completely dull, both before and after sharpening with the Sharpmaker.

After reading the Sharpmaker manual and watching the DVD, I proceeded to use the standard 20 strokes/side method in each of the 4 block configurations as outlined in the directions. I could clearly see that some metal was being taken off the knives and deposited on the stones, but after going through the sharpening procedure none of my knives seemed any sharper than when I started.

What could I be doing wrong? The method seems foolproof, but maybe there is some detail I am missing. Is it the case that some very cheap knives simply can't be sharpened very much? Were these knives sharpened to some strange angle in the factory that prevents the fixed angle of the sharpmaker from being effective? Do I need to buy the diamond rods? I would be very hesitant to buy a new type of sharpener at this point. With all of the positive reviews the Sharpmaker has received, it seems more likely at this point that I'm either doing something wrong or there is something wrong with the knives.

Alternately, I am close to purchasing a good set of kitchen knives anyway, so if it's not worth the trouble to sharpen the cheap ones but the Sharpmaker would work just fine on a good set, then maybe I'll just forget about buying the diamond rods or any new sharpeners and save that money for the good set of kitchen knives.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[richard j]

After a few hundred strokes on each side with the diamond rods and about 50 per side on each of the coarse stones and the fine stones, I finally have my cheap kitchen paring knife sharp enough to where it can cut printer paper pretty reliably and newspaper somewhat reliably. It's not extremely sharp, but definitely sharper than when I started.

I'm pretty sure I was able to form a burr on each side using the diamond stones. I kind of arbitrarily chose 50 strokes per side on each of the other stones. It seemed like I was polishing out the scratches from the previous step, but I'm not positive.

Either I'm doing something wrong or there must be a much faster system out there for dull knives. At the rate I'm going, I would have to spend an entire day and night doing nothing but sharpening to get my 3 kitchen knives and pocket knife to "newspaper sharp", which is still well short of the "scary sharp" levels I have seen videos of.

I probably just need to practice more too, but I'm not too excited about having to spend hours doing it.

how would you like to get all of your kitchen knives shaving sharp in just a few minutes?

 

[Citizen Snips]

Brief update:

I got some 100 grit sandpaper today and zip tied it to the fine rods. It seems to remove metal faster than the diamond rods based on the scratch pattern, but even after a few hundred passes on one side I still haven't been able to form a burr on this pocket knife. I did the sharpie test on both sides of the knife and verified that I am in fact hitting just the edge. I'm not sure what to try next, other than a coarser grit sandpaper. I think 60 grit was the lowest I saw there.

Another strange thing I noticed about this knife is that the bevel on one side of the knife is taller than the bevel on the other side. I'm not sure if that's important or not, as both sides still passed the sharpie test. The marker was being removed right on the bevel.

I'm not giving up on this thing yet. I'll try some other stuff and hopefully I'll get it eventually.

The steels you are sharpening play a role too, not all steels agree with being sharpened on the same abrasive and take painfully long if the wrong stone is used. What to get? I would get a large benchstone. Norton coarse aluminum oxide stone for example, large, cheap, and effective.

Would an aluminum oxide stone be coarser than a diamond stone or 100 grit sandpaper? I thought diamond was the hardest, coarsest material there was. There are some really cheap aluminum oxide stones on amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Oxid...NR40/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1329805852&sr=8-2

 

[Mephtyrm]

My advice is for a beginner to not even try to count passes and just go back and forth for a steady hand until there is a burr, that is is much faster.
Diamond IMO is much more effective for most sharpening because it doesn't load up like conventional stones.
I recommend getting a guided system and getting the coarsest diamond stone for it.