Belt Sander/Grinder 4x36 - Why doesn't this work for knifemaking?

[Dave Hub]

I am a complete newbie to knife making, but I am very interested in the craft. I have been reading a ton of threads on this forum and others about tools/techniques and general information. I have concluded that the 2x72 machine is the clear front runner and preferred tool for the job, but I can't figure out why. I don't have the budget for a $2,000 belt grinder ... yet...., but I do have a 4x36 variable speed.

Why won't the 4x36 work? Why is the 2x72 so much better? Would I be wasting my time on my 4x36 and should I just wait and use hand tools until I can get a 2x72?

Thanks for the input!

 

[12345678910]

If you already have one, by all means, give it a try


I bought one

It had insufficient power, I could stop it with one finger pressure

I had a hard time finding good belts, although I know now Trugrit and others will make whatever you want.

The platen is usually a bent wavy sheet metal plate
but you could glue a piece of glass on and get a flat platen.


I say the big thing is tracking.
I couldn't control the belt tracking.
It's nice to bring the edge of the belt to the edge of, or over the platen on each side when you work the plunge.



give it a try if you have it
But have a good look at the filing jigs listed below, they give perfect control.

 

[12345678910]

The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V36

Answers to a student are different than to machinist
With members worldwide, you may have a local supplier, hammerin or neighbour.
Join our community;fill out your profile with (Country, State, City), age, education, work and hobbies so we get a sense of who you are.

Basics
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-PDF
http://jubilee101.com/subscription/pdf/Tools/Making-Simple-Knives---12pages.pdf

Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694673

Things I Advise New Makers Against-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?8og1ix21j9dcz4n

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?02ra4do6xyzayeq
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/cache/articles/nw1/scales1.htm
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Wheeler-s-Steel-*-Stuck-in-the-metal-with-you
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/956343-Damascus-integral-tag-along

Bob Egnath how to http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9435307&postcount=43

BladeForums - E-books or Google books http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Books I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
Clear, organized, available inexpensive.


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith - colour photos - forging - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-PDF Http://www.archive.org/download/elementarymachin00palmrich/elementarymachin00palmrich.pdf

The Complete Practical Machinist-1885-PDF http://ia700309.us.archive.org/6/items/completepractic00rosegoog/completepractic00rosegoog.pdf
Right Click and save

The $50 knife Shop-not recommended
Great title, but NOT gospel.
Forging is NOT necessary; file and grind (stock removal)

"Goop Quench" is Bullsh*t
Back when they used whale oil, it was still liquid oil
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to steel type;
Grocery store canola oil works for 1084

Junkyard steel requires skill and experience to identify and heat treat
Forget Lawnmower blades and railroad spikes, start with a new known steel
Good heat treat needs accurate temperature control and full quench
Proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo is inexpensive and quench in Canola

Cable damascus is an advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but 2x72” belt grinders plans are now free on the web


Video

Don't be this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEOTtslHARQ

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it daily for 10 days http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it daily for 10 days http://www.howtomakeaknife.net/FreeStuff/SafetyVideo.wmv

Many videos are available, some better than others

The best beginner videos I have seen:
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
Paul Long's sheath work & videos are recommended, but advanced-with inlays, tooling and machine stitching

Green Pete's Free Video
Make a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat
Use a piece of known 1084 steel, not a file. This as an example of doing it by hand with few tools
"Green Pete" posted it free
Be sure to look at the other titles I mentioned too – search knifemaking torrents

Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/499...femaking_Basics_-_Make_a_Mora_Bushcraft_Knife

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

Videos for rent,read the reviews, Some good, some bad, expect to wait months and there have been no new videos in years.
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking


Knife Design:
Think thin, small, simple and fixed
Forget swords, 1/4” thick stock, saw-teeth, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife

Look at hundreds of photos
Lloyd Harding drawings, Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Bob Engnath Patterns PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?qgx7yebn77n77qx

http://knifemaking.altervista.org/index_disegni_en.html

Start with a drawing and post it before you work on steel, we love photos and can comment before you start
French curves, graph paper and erasers are vital tools
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bHFtVNs9tWA/TEj5Quiq1ZI/AAAAAAAAAI0/rn2EoHoXpVc/s1600/The+French+Curve.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1147466-How?p=13120810#post13120810

Then a cardboard cutout template & with handles, pins and such
Use playdough to shape a handle, good handles are not flat

How to post a photo
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...AL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums



Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dec78RQsokw

Nick Wheeler- Hand sanding 101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4x4QLpfnk

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes is useless for knives
Buy new known 1/8” annealed blade steel
Forget lawnmower blades ,files, railroad spikes and other unknown junkyard steels
For the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use known good steel
You will spend more money on sandpaper or soda pop than you will for steel

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, Elmax plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find Eutectoid steel and quench in Canola oil.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheap & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160
His telephone service is better than his website.

Suppliers List
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating $10 or $15 for perfect results

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs
http://www.buckknives.com/about-knives/heat-treating/
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)

FAQ's
http://www.hypefreeblades.com/faq.html

1095 is a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment to HT themselves
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K
Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 CPM-s35vn Elmax, and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 due to minimum charges


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget Goop Quench and Motor oil

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type
Explanation and classification oil speeds
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?28197-Hardening-II-Quenching

Grocery store canola oil works well -if you use the right steel like 1084

Brine and water are cheap for "water hardening" steels W1 and 1095, but use fast oils Parks 50 & Houghton Houghto Quench K
If you use water or brine, expect broken blades

Hot steel beats plastic, Don't quench in plastic pail

Glue – Epoxy
Use new slow setting 30 min high strength epoxy to attach handles and seal out moisture
Slow epoxy is stronger and gives you time to work
prep, measure, mix are key in gluing.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive or blasting is best
Ensure the surface is clean including fingerprints, wear vinyl or nitrile gloves
Use Acetone or Blasting
Don't over-clamp.A “glue starved joint” is weak

West Systems G Flex http://www.westsystem.com/ss/g-flex-epoxy/
Find it locally http://www.westsystem.com/ss/where-to-buy/
Brownell's Acraglas
JB Weld-leaves a grey line


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it by hand with files and abrasive like the Green Pete video.
Use 1084 instead of a file, spheroid annealed steel is butter soft

Stacy - 10 Tools
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1049666-Ten-Tools?p=11983527#post11983527

Filing jigs
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg
Http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8152684286_312b9fc8da_b.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9iNDRwwBQQ#t=330

Grinders
A professional three or four wheel 2x72 is worth it
In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
Tracking problems are usually solved with belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Entry Level Grinders
Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder
Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qfYT_m2Tw0


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
There are some things that need to be modified
http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62944
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_e1p6D-UyycWHd2V0VMTFVJMDQ/edit

NWG No Weld Grinder $25 plans
http://usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://www.wilmontgrinders.com/Pages/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
Every maker has a preference, new belts come out all the time, search for recent info
Ceramic, trizact and structured belts are expensive and have long life. Aluminium oxide are cheap and wear quickly
Some belts have rigid backing, J-flex have soft backing and can blend curves.
Blaze and Cubitron are popular


VFD Variable Speed made simple

Step pulleys are not as cheap as you think
Maska steel pulleys, plus shaft, bearings, belt

It all adds up to 1/2 the price of a sealed NEMA 4 VFD like a KB Electronics KBAC-27D

I like direct drive with no belts, a VFD and 3 phase motor for about $200 over the price of the step pulleys with fine instant control.

NEMA 1 VFD’s metallic dust intrusion will smoke it.


Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C,
RPM is up to you some use 1700 RPM at double speed.
Make sure it has a foot base for the KMG and NWG, a C flange face mount for Bader, Bee, Wilton and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with $100 shipping to Canada I save $ on used motors

The 1.5 HP combination is the most common
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.


VFD
KBAC-27D
http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_AC_Drives_Inverters/AC_Drives_NEMA_4X.html
http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbda_manual.pdf
Use the Distributor Locator to find a local source, online sources may be cheaper.

There are cheaper, but the only VFD I found that runs a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC-27D

It is NEMA 4 sealed
Good community and company support, manuals, diagrams, photos and settings.

Travis W reports running 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.

Hookup is simple
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html


Safety Equipment
Protect -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and use safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.

If you can't breathe, nothing else matters.

Wearing a mask and glasses on the top of your head doesn't Count.

The minimum I use are silicone half masks with P100 Filter
The soft silicone masks fit better
3M 7500
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...Ox_Uev7qe17zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--&fn=CH7500FP.pdf

and North 7700
http://www.amazon.com/North-Safety-770030L-Silicone-Respirator/dp/B002C08YCW
http://www.amazon.com/North-7580P100-P100-Particulate-Cartridge/dp/B000UH6PSE/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_b.

Use VOC & P100 combo cartridge for acetone and glue fumes.
Prefilters can snap over the main filter for longer life.
There are 3 sizes of face get fitted in person

Shave, test the fit every time.

For beards
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Search

This searches BF well.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

Get rich making knives ?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...knife-making-worth-it?p=11980504#post11980504

Visit a shop in person
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1166688-How-to-get-a-shop-invite

V36 December 2014

 

[Wloch248]

It's not that it can't work but that it would prove fairly difficult to make a knife with. Most of the 4x36 sanders have underpowered motors. it is like the 1x30 and 2x42. You can make knives with them but it isn't ideal. I would make a few knives with files, or by whatever means you want, and if you are still hooked I would save up for a 2x72.

 

[Ninja Blacksmith]

I have also heard that the 2X72 is much better, whether that be due to belt grit/material selection, motor horsepower/speed, etc., or if it's just "not cool" to use a 4X36 anymore I really don't know for sure. HOWEVER; the 4X36 will still come in handy, especially for cleaning up coarse filing and grinding marks during shaping. I use a 4X36 myself for touch-up when shaping the blade profile, and for rough shaping handle material. Sure, a 4X36 may not be the top belt grinder, but it's still quite useful.

 

[zhyla]

I recently switched to my 4x36 for bevel grinding. If the blade you're working on doesn't have a plunge line then it works fine. The width of the platen and housing means you can't cut into something with the edge of the belt. But I was having a hard time getting a truly flat bevel with my 1x30 and it was super easy with the 4x36. The belt isn't as tight as it could be and I think if you want a real crisp corner on the bevel it's not going to happen, at least on my 4x36.

So I wouldn't say the 4x36 is useless at all, but it's got some limitations.

I wish I had bought a 2x42. The 4x36 was a gift and the 1x30 I bought before I got into knife making. Some day...

 

[BallewBlade]

I use my 4x36 mostly for the disc attachment on the side to shape handle scales where they meet the ricaso. I typically tilt the work table to 45° and then shape them to my liking. I also use it as a"surface grinder" where I put a STRONG magnet on the blade to hold it in order to grind the flats . I would say a 4x36 is not good for doing bevels on knives and that's where the 1x30 shines and they can be had for half the price.

 

[samuraistuart]

The problem with most of the 4x36 grinders is the speed in which they run....really fast. I think mine is over 3000sfpm. Will definitely overheat a heat treated blade any closer than .010" on the edge. Also, the platen was no where near flat. I spent quite a bit of time just getting it flat. Mine has power....just too much speed for quality bevel grinding. One advantage of course is the 4" compared to 2"....harder to grind in a line accidentally, especially on a 4" hunting knife! And there is a problem with quality belts too. They are out there, in the lower grits. Supergrit is where I go. Mostly use it for handle work.

 

[drysideshooter]

I am a newb, and am picking up my 2x72 Esteem Grinder from Brett next week. I am a tool freak (Hi, I'm Jeff and I have a tool problem, it's been less than two days since I last purchased a tool)

With a bit of searching you will find all sorts of threads on things like the Grinder in a Box (GIB) and other alternative ways to end up with a more budget friendly 2x72. The knife making community appears to be full of very creative, clever folks, and there are some amazing threads to be found.

 

[tattooedfreak]

The one I had worked great... until too much metal dust built up inside and shorted out the motor.. Thats the big reason, internal motors where the exhaust blows past the motor and out. The motor is exposed the the magnet attracts the metal so no matter how much you clean it, it builds up and will eventually short out your motor. If you are patient, you can make reasonably attractive knives up until then. They wont be fantastic though, as has been pointed out, you may not get the sharp bevels that stand out from using hand tools or specifically made grinders.

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

I used my $30 flea market special 4x36 until the wheels fell off! It was an old Craftsman and had plenty of power... tracked well too.

The down side is that the platen area will wear fast (I hear you can solve this by using a pyroceram glass or ceramic platen). I also had to clean up my grinds with a file on the flats a bit and especially the plunge because it is hard to get into the plunge the way they are set up.

I'd say on a hobby production level one would be good as long as it has the power. Do your main metal removal with it and leave cleanup for the files and paper. Keep in mind most are meant for occasional use...

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Daniels experience is a good point.

The old Craftsman 4X36 had a belt drive and separate motor..... and tracking that was fairly good. They had a 1/2 to 3/4HP motor. It was suitable for knife work. Not anything like a 2X72 1.5HP grinder, but not too bad. The "all-in-one" grinders today are very low powered ( typically 1/3HP) and are made for woodworking only.



I have an old Craftsman 4X36 that I converted to 3/4HP VFD and use it for sanding delicate handle blocks and ivory, and occasionally to flatten large bevels on kitchen blades.
I have a heavy duty 6X48 Jet unit that runs well and has a 1HP motor. It is what I use to flatten most handle blocks, and use it with a 50 grit ceramic belt to flatten sword bevels. It's biggest advantage is the dust collection port.

 

[Dave Hub]

I really appreciate all the feedback guys/gals. I am excited about this hobby. Will post my progress once I get set up and started.

 

[canid]

The "all-in-one" grinders today are very low powered ( typically 1/3HP) and are made for woodworking only.

And this is tragic, in that that motor size is just as inadequate for that role also with a wide belt sander and the number of woodworking tasks that require flat sanding over a longish flat.

You can make do with anything though, and if it's that or hand filing you can still save a fair bit of work. I got started with one of these: http://www.kaboodle.com/hi/img/2/0/0/28/b/AAAAAn5YmWkAAAAAACi_7g.jpg (think I found the right link, the janky newer ones but with the belt drive)

After I broke 4 drive belts (in probably 10 hours of total use) I learned to do make do even with just the disk, which turned out to be of far more use to me.

 

[Mecha]

Edit: oops nevermind!