Benchmade Black Class, failing pommel strike tests (Axis lock failure)

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Londinium Armoury

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Hi I noticed that Benchmade Black Class knives result in lock failure when delivering pommel strikes, the downward impact forces the axis lock to fail and close on your hand. I wouldn't bring this up or consider it as anything significant in blue class knives. But seeing as these are marketed as tactical hard use knives aimed at military LEO where your knife could be the difference between life and death, it bothers me that these are marketed that way,
Here is a quote from your own literature: "Used by professionals when quality tools mean the difference between life and death. From law enforcement and public safety to elite military"
Seeing as a pommel strike with a deployed blade is a realistic technique in that kind of tactical application and world of use, I think maybe the marketing around axis lock knives should be altered, or have some sort of disclaimer of its limits. Seeing as you actually put the words "Difference between life and death relying on these tools" in your literature, that's a bold statement where people are supposed to trust these tools with their actual lives.
Only axis locks seem to fail this test, I am yet to find another type of lock that fails when the pommel strike impacts the blade handle, all other locks pass this basic technique test except the axis.
I would advise that you keep the axis lock for the blue class and gold class, but use something more robust on your black class knives. Here is a video of me testing the axis lock on a black class Benchmade Vs various other locks on other knives.
 
Yes and the innumerable numbers of LEO's who report of losing all their digits can attest to that fact....
 
FWIW I just conducted this test on my bugout, and a Mini grip, and surprisingly, the axis never moved, and there was no failure. Another point to consider is if you were holding the knife correctly, for a pommel strike, you would likely have you entire hand wrapped around the knife.

With your hand in this position, the axis lock would likely be in contact with your hand, even slightly, and thus preventing the downward movement of the axis.

I'm not saying it is impossible for the axis to fail, but it is unlikely the knife would be used for a pommel strike in the same orientation as you are demonstrating on video. I personally have never performed a pommel strike only holding a knife with just my fingers. YMMV.



TXPO
 
I also get all of Benchmade's advertising and so on, but you have to be able to wade through the BS. As an active LE, if I get down to the point where I am fighting with my folding pocket knife, then a pommel strike probably isn't going to help. A knife fight in LE is highly unlikely despite what the movies portray.

Knife fighting is not a technique we use. We train to deal with individuals with knifes, but we don't counter them with knives or equal force, we use force greater than that of the attacking force to stop the threat. In Texas, attacking someone with a knife is considered deadly force.

As Roy stated, if in fact I need to pommel strike and object, say in an SRT operation, or any typical situation, then I would use it with the blade closed, or use my fixed blade.

So my advice would be, if your planning on knife fighting, use a fixed blade. They are much better for that sort of thing.


TXPO
 
Texaspoff said:
FWIW I just conducted this test on my bugout, and a Mini grip, and surprisingly, the axis never moved, and there was no failure. Another point to consider is if you were holding the knife correctly, for a pommel strike, you would likely have you entire hand wrapped around the knife.

With your hand in this position, the axis lock would likely be in contact with your hand, even slightly, and thus preventing the downward movement of the axis.

I'm not saying it is impossible for the axis to fail, but it is unlikely the knife would be used for a pommel strike in the same orientation as you are demonstrating on video. I personally have never performed a pommel strike only holding a knife with just my fingers. YMMV.



TXPO
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Could you please demonstrate it on video, because not being funny but lots of people tell me this in text format yet everybody that does it on video has the same failure, and that is the point of why it's dangerous, because the blade will come down on your fingers, cutting your hand. I'm holding it like this to avoid getting cut.
You wouldn't want to hold the knife with your hand around it, because the impact will force your hand further down the blade, giving the blade enough room to close on your fingers, and if your knives are as sharp as mine you will get a very nasty cut.
Do that full grip pommel test at your own risk, I don't advise holding it in your hand to do the test, because it's dangerous.
Here is another video of somebody doing it and the axis lock failing.
 
Roy Batty said:
Here’s a crazy thought:
If you’re going to be doing pommel strikes, close the knife first.
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Here's an even crazier thought, in a self defense situation where the blade has already been deployed, and the situation has advanced to grappling distance in a struggle, you can't causually close your knife while being assaulted.
How about that for crazy.
 
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Londinium Armoury said:
Here's an even crazier thought, in a self defense situationw here the blade has already been deployed, and the situation has advanced to grappling distance in a struggle, you can't causually close your knife while being assaulted.
How about that for crazy.
Click to expand...
I think if I was in a life or death situation, I wouldn’t care much about the off chance that the knife might close from a pommel strike. There is no difference between the physical mechanics of proximity in use of the blade vs use of the pommel in a tactical scenario. That would be like saying you had to pistol whip someone because they were too close for handgun use. It doesn’t add up.
 
Texaspoff said:
I also get all of Benchmade's advertising and so on, but you have to be able to wade through the BS. As an active LE, if I get down to the point where I am fighting with my folding pocket knife, then a pommel strike probably isn't going to help. A knife fight in LE is highly unlikely despite what the movies portray.

Knife fighting is not a technique we use. We train to deal with individuals with knifes, but we don't counter them with knives or equal force, we use force greater than that of the attacking force to stop the threat. In Texas, attacking someone with a knife is considered deadly force.

As Roy stated, if in fact I need to pommel strike and object, say in an SRT operation, or any typical situation, then I would use it with the blade closed, or use my fixed blade.

So my advice would be, if your planning on knife fighting, use a fixed blade. They are much better for that sort of thing.


TXPO
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I understand that LE are not going to be fighting with their folders, it would be used more to cutting people out of seatbelts, and other tasks more menial like that. The tactical aspect is more aimed at civilian self defense situations in the USA, where a lot of the custom seems to be. I hear people mention tactical folder options quite frequently in the US knife community.
Not really talking about actual combat knives like the Ka-Bar or military combat knives, but people do carry folders with tactical self defense in mind. And if new knife buyers read around and hear about the Benchmade black class, they might come to the conclusion that they are a viable option, because of Benchmades own literature. We all know what Benchmade are trying to say when they write "Black class professional tools for LEO and military in life or death situations" they are implying these are capable of tactical combat usage, basically a hard use knife that can double up as a weapon if needed.
So it's a bit missleading of them especially when the lock fails so easily with impact, I know you could say never pommel strike with a deployed blade, but if it's already deployed and things get spicy at grappling range, a pommel strike with a deployed blade might actually happen and probably has happened many times in the world for people. The worse part is that my slipjoints pass this test without failiure, even an opinel or victorinox wont close on your hand, which just makes it laughable.
The Benchmade black class advertized as hard use military ready tactical uber knife fails a pommel strike, where the opinel fruit slicer passes with flying colours.
 
Roy Batty said:
I think if I was in a life or death situation, I wouldn’t care much about the off chance that the knife might close from a pommel strike. There is no difference between the physical mechanics of proximity in use of the blade vs use of the pommel in a tactical scenario. That would be like saying you had to pistol whip someone because they were too close for handgun use. It doesn’t add up.
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May I ask how many years of knife fighting training you have practiced just out of curiosity, because I have quite a few years under my belt and I run a bladed weapons sparring club. There most certainly are times where a pommel strike is the better option.
 
Londinium Armoury said:
May I ask how many years of knife fighting training you have practiced just out of curiosity, because I have quite a few years under my belt and I run a bladed weapons sparring club. There most certainly are times where a pommel strike is the better option.
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I’m not here for a martial arts experience pissing contest.

But I will respond with this:
Law enforcement and military service members have been buying black class knives for many, many years. I have personally carried black class knives in combat. Not once did I ever hear about anyone complaining the axis lock caused the blade to close on them when they were pommel striking criminals or terrorists.

This is a classic case of “inventing an issue that is a problem for no one”.

I just went and did a few strikes with my bailout M4, and the knife didn’t close on me.
 
Roy Batty said:
I’m not here for a martial arts experience pissing contest.

But I will respond with this:
Law enforcement and military service members have been buying black class knives for many, many years. I have personally carried black class knives in combat. Not once did I ever hear about anyone complaining the axis lock caused the blade to close on them when they were pommel striking criminals or terrorists.

This is a classic case of “inventing an issue that is a problem for no one”.

I just went and did a few strikes with my bailout M4, and the knife didn’t close on me.
Click to expand...
You were the one who brought up fighting mechanics of bladed weapon techniques, so I figured you must have some experienced training under bladed weapons experts, the blade of a knife isn't the only part of the knife that is used. You also mention never using a pistol to strike with, which makes me think you have not thought this through very well, because thee are quite a few situations where you would want to use the pistol as a blunt impact tool, and have no choice but to do so in fact.
For example if your gun has jammed, or you have run out of ammunition and all rounds have been spent, then the attacker closes the gap and is upon you. Then you most certainly will use that pistol as an impact tool.
Discussing training and techniques among practitioners is not seen as a pissing contest, in fact with the people I train with it is a learning experience and a joy to discuss tactics and techniques and experience at different places of training.
If you want to talk about bladed weapons techniques then we can do that, if you don't wish to discuss such things then why would you bring them up.
Also you mention your Benchmade knives didn't fail, can you please show me on video with proof, because eveyones Benchmade seems to hold up to the test in text format, but not in video format, that must be a glitch in the matrix.
Are you suggesting I have a faulty Benchmade knife? and other people on YouTube also have a faulty Benchmade knife? Should I send mine in for warranty under factory defect?
 
Well I was finally able to get the lock on my Bugout to fail in this manner, holding it between my fingers. I did have to hit it so hard though it almost flew out of my fingers. I did try this while holding the knife in a full grip, and I couldn't get it to fail.

So what does this mean?, to me absolutely nothing. I will never be using my bugout in this manner, thus I never have to worry about the lock failing. All locks have a point of failure, BHQ proved that. I still subscribe to the fact if I owned a bailout or any axis lock knife with a glass breaker on the pommel, I'm going to use it with the blade closed anyway.

I agree with Roy on this one, it is an issue that isn't a problem for very few if any folks, in real world applications.

I would also argue, most knife serous fighting guys would more than likely have a fixed blade on them for just such an occasion.


TXPO
 
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It's a glass breaker. If you're swinging at glass with the blade open, you're doing it wrong.

If you're in a grappling situation and you have the blade open already, why would you choose the glass breaker instead? You're already involved in a deadly struggle, de-escalating by using less than lethal means doesn't seem like the best of all available options.
 
Silent H said:
It's a glass breaker. If you're swinging at glass with the blade open, you're doing it wrong.

If you're in a grappling situation and you have the blade open already, why would you choose the glass breaker instead? You're already involved in a deadly struggle, de-escalating by using less than lethal means doesn't seem like the best of all available options.
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What if you were fighting someone made out of glass (unlikely I know), or more likely who was wearing glass armor that you had to breach before you commence stabbing them?
 
Silent H said:
It's a glass breaker. If you're swinging at glass with the blade open, you're doing it wrong.

If you're in a grappling situation and you have the blade open already, why would you choose the glass breaker instead? You're already involved in a deadly struggle, de-escalating by using less than lethal means doesn't seem like the best of all available options.
Click to expand...

As Lynn Thompson says, you use a pommel strike to show mercy.

As for failure, I've seen what tests they put axis locks through. I have no fears of mine ever failing in normal use. If I want to bash someone in the head I'll pull out my 4max Scout.
 
I tried this with a turret and it didn’t close. I hurt my hand slamming it on the table. I might be able to get it to fail but might also bust the knife.
The videos do seem legit.
Need stronger springs?
 
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