Benchmade Black Class, failing pommel strike tests (Axis lock failure)

[Londinium Armoury]

If I ever get to the point that I am doing pommel strikes on a barstool I really hope someone takes the knife away from me and drives me home.

So spine whack tests are valid, but pommel strike tests are invalid (on tactical knives) Or would you say all impact tests are invalid on a knife to test it's lock strength. Do you have a problem with me demonstrating that this happens with the knives, and maybe would prefer if it was left an unknown factor? Or did you personally know this result already.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Well who even uses the pommel in a close quarters knife fight, with the blade open? How does that play out? “Well I was going to stab this guy but I found out at last second that he’s really my long lost brother and he’s in a drug induced psychotic rage so I don’t want to stab him, just bop him on the noggin with my pommel and take him home to sleep it off”.

Yes because creating a scenario in which it makes the technique sound outlandish refutes the fact that a pommel strike with a deployed blade has and does happen in real world situations. If you have a deployed knife in your dominant hand while being attacked, you only have 2 options, use the blade ont hem or use the pommel, because you cannot grapple with that hand anymore unless you drop the blade. If you remove pommel strikes from the equation all you are left with is deadly force.
Why would you want your only option to be using deadly force? Are you some kind of psychopath who thinks killing somebody should and is your only option, and before you reply remember we are talking defending yourself in a situationw here the blade is already deployed, and they are already in grappling range, because yes this is a real situationt hat people find themselves in from time to time.
What if the person attacking you has a benchmade black class? and you manage to take the knife from them, now you have a deployed benchmade knife in your hand (Just 1 possible situation) and you don't want to stab the attacker, pommel striking them might be a viable option for you to subdue them, now it's nice to know if it's a Benchmade the risk of it closing on your hand while doing so.
What could you possibly have a problem with by me exposing this failure from the axis lock? even if the odds are low it doesn't make the odds out of daily situation tactical application of the tool for its intended use. After 1 little online search, I already found videos of people being attacked and disarming the attacker and using the knife to pommel strike them. So any talk of "It never happens" is already debunked and refuted, because video evidence confirms yes it does happen.
I refrained from using personal anecdotal evidence from my own bladed weapon training and court cases as you cannot watch those.
I don't see why any of you have a problem with this downward impact force lock failuire demonstration, even in the event that it is a rare situational failure that most of you will never experience, surely it's only advantageous to inform people of this failure, I do not see any negatives or reasons why I shouldn't inform people, can you think of any reasons why I should keep this to myself and not share it? What harm can it do to people who buy tactical knives.

 

[King of the Cheese]

Yes because creating a scenario in which it makes the technique sound outlandish refutes the fact that a pommel strike with a deployed blade has and does happen in real world situations. If you have a deployed knife in your dominant hand while being attacked, you only have 2 options, use the blade ont hem or use the pommel, because you cannot grapple with that hand anymore unless you drop the blade. If you remove pommel strikes from the equation all you are left with is deadly force.
Why would you want your only option to be using deadly force? Are you some kind of psychopath who thinks killing somebody should and is your only option, and before you reply remember we are talking defending yourself in a situationw here the blade is already deployed, and they are already in grappling range, because yes this is a real situationt hat people find themselves in from time to time.
What if the person attacking you has a benchmade black class? and you manage to take the knife from them, now you have a deployed benchmade knife in your hand (Just 1 possible situation) and you don't want to stab the attacker, pommel striking them might be a viable option for you to subdue them, now it's nice to know if it's a Benchmade the risk of it closing on your hand while doing so.
What could you possibly have a problem with by me exposing this failure from the axis lock? even if the odds are low it doesn't make the odds out of daily situation tactical application of the tool for its intended use. After 1 little online search, I already found videos of people being attacked and disarming the attacker and using the knife to pommel strike them. So any talk of "It never happens" is already debunked and refuted, because video evidence confirms yes it does happen.
I refrained from using personal anecdotal evidence from my own bladed weapon training and court cases as you cannot watch those.
I don't see why any of you have a problem with this downward impact force lock failuire demonstration, even in the event that it is a rare situational failure that most of you will never experience, surely it's only advantageous to inform people of this failure, I do not see any negatives or reasons why I shouldn't inform people, can you think of any reasons why I should keep this to myself and not share it? What harm can it do to people who buy tactical knives.

Why would you worry about something as trivial as the axis lock closing momentarily if you were in a life and death pommel striking scenario? Would the possibility of the blade closing on your fingers and causing a small laceration REALLY cause you to alter course at the cost of your life?
Should I judge firearms by the ability to buttstroke or pistol whip someone?
How about my writing utensils on the basis of being able to withstand pommel strikes? Should I re-evaluated my entire set of ball points?

This is a non-issue for Benchmade.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Why would you worry about something as trivial as the axis lock closing momentarily if you were in a life and death pommel striking scenario? Would the possibility of the blade closing on your fingers and causing a small laceration REALLY cause you to alter course at the cost of your life?
Should I judge firearms by the ability to buttstroke or pistol whip someone?
How about my writing utensils on the basis of being able to withstand pommel strikes? Should I re-evaluated my entire set of ball points?

This is a non-issue for Benchmade.

Honestly yes, if I were to find myself in a life or death situation where a pommel strike could lead to me cutting my own dominant hand open while being attacked, I would seriously consider not using a pommel strike with a blade I know will cut myself. Because that choice could cause me to lose control of the situation and be the reason I die. It might be a non issue for Benchmade and their series of tactical knives, but I'm sure it's not a non issue to people who practice blade based martial arts.

 

[King of the Cheese]

Honestly yes, if I were to find myself in a life or death situation where a pommel strike could lead to me cutting my own dominant hand open while being attacked, I would seriously consider not using a pommel strike with a blade I know will cut myself. Because that choice could cause me to lose control of the situation and be the reason I die. It might be a non issue for Benchmade and their series of tactical knives, but I'm sure it's not a non issue to people who practice blade based martial arts.

...and for those few that worry about that, there are better options out there for them.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

...and for those few that worry about that, there are better options out there for them.

Yes there are better options out there, and I'm demonstrating one reason why Benchmade Black class might not be a good option for a tactical knife. What is your issue with me demonstrating downward impact force failure of the axis lock, would you prefer I didn't show people it's point of failure?

 

[Centermass]

Are you aware that every semi automatic pistol ever made will go out of battery and fail to fire if the muzzle is pressed against anything and the slide is displaced, by a matter of a millimeter in some cases, before the trigger is pulled? Or, how about any disruption to the linear motion of the slide while firing will cause failure of the firearm to cycle or properly feed, rendering it useless for the next shot?

By your logic, these should be huge dealbreaker flaws in semiautomatic pistol design when it comes to CQB application... because those things are likely to happen while one might be grappling with their gun out... yet, strangely, EVERY law enforcement agency AND military element on the planet still seems to think they’re the bees knees for some reason... I bet it’s because the advantages in real-world application significantly outweigh the disadvantage of the inherent design flaw that can be overcome by physics. Try applying this logic to pommel striking with your folding knife. More parts ALWAYs means a greater likelihood of failure.

Chances are, although insignificantly small in the really real world, that you’re ever really going to be in a situation where it matters that your knife is going to fold when you pommel strike... you know because you’ve decided to “show mercy”... in a life or death knife fight ... or luckily disarmed your opponent... who didn’t crap himself and take off running when you did....whatever the case may be, then you should train around that likelihood. You know, like cops and soldiers do with firearms, to try to avoid from putting our pistols in “out-of-battery” conditions, and clearing malfunctions during use. OR... like has been said a ton of times already... find a fixed blade that would eliminate the opportunity of a failure during your worrisome pommel strikes, if it’s that big of a deal to you.

 

[Danke42]

What if the guy you're fighting reaches over and flicks the easy to access axis lock? Anyone think of that?

 

[King of the Cheese]

Yes there are better options out there, and I'm demonstrating one reason why Benchmade Black class might not be a good option for a tactical knife. What is your issue with me demonstrating downward impact force failure of the axis lock, would you prefer I didn't show people it's point of failure?

Benchmades work just fine for tactical applications... they’re just not perfect for this made up scenario never likely to occur outside of a “knife fighting dojo”.

 

[Grizzm@n]

I haven't seen a video yet of someone simulating a pommel strike while holding the knife in a manner consistent with how it would be held in actual use....with the result being a failed lock.

A strike isn't even necessary to determine if the lock can be disengaged. Grip the knife in your dominant hand in the same manner as would be used during combat. Using the other hand, press onto the Axis lock release in an attempt to disengage the lock. Can it be unlocked, and the blade closed, without adjusting the dominant hand to allow it to occur?

Until this is shown, I will not believe that a problem exists. As I previously stated, a leather glove can be worn for protection.


The phrase "put up, or shut up", comes to mind.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Are you aware that every semi automatic pistol ever made will go out of battery and fail to fire if the muzzle is pressed against anything and the slide is displaced, by a matter of a millimeter in some cases, before the trigger is pulled? Or, how about any disruption to the linear motion of the slide while firing will cause failure of the firearm to cycle or properly feed, rendering it useless for the next shot?

By your logic, these should be huge dealbreaker flaws in semiautomatic pistol design when it comes to CQB application... because those things are likely to happen while one might be grappling with their gun out... yet, strangely, EVERY law enforcement agency AND military element on the planet still seems to think they’re the bees knees for some reason... I bet it’s because the advantages in real-world application significantly outweigh the disadvantage of the inherent design flaw that can be overcome by physics. Try applying this logic to pommel striking with your folding knife. More parts ALWAYs means a greater likelihood of failure.

Chances are, although insignificantly small in the really real world, that you’re ever really going to be in a situation where it matters that your knife is going to fold when you pommel strike... you know because you’ve decided to “show mercy”... in a life or death knife fight ... or luckily disarmed your opponent... who didn’t crap himself and take off running when you did....whatever the case may be, then you should train around that likelihood. You know, like cops and soldiers do with firearms, to try to avoid from putting our pistols in “out-of-battery” conditions, and clearing malfunctions during use. OR... like has been said a ton of times already... find a fixed blade that would eliminate the opportunity of a failure during your worrisome pommel strikes, if it’s that big of a deal to you.

So how did you know any of that information unless it was tested and pointed out? Also don't you think those are valuable things to know and inform people about, which is what i'm doing. Also there are quite a few things about semi automatic pistols that are a deal breaker for many people who carry pistols for self defense, and that is why some of them opt to carry revolvers. It's not unheard of for people to carry a revolver because it decreases the chance of a semi auto jamming. But I take it you would be one of those people who tell them "Well if you maintain your semi auto it wont jam, because even a dirty revolver can fail to fire" Fact remains that yes some people put more trust in revovlers because of those issues.
Next you don't always get to choose what knife you use to defend yourself with, like the last time I stood trial in crown court charged with GBH with a deadly weapon after home invaders attacked me and my pregnant fiance. I didn't get to choose which weapon I used to defend us with, because I was already on the ground and my fiance picked up my stanly knife I use for work because it was right there on the table closest to her. out of every weapon in my house which include, crossbows, bowie knives, swords, machetes, axes and a safe full of other weapons that was what she handed to me. I would have very much liked to have been handed a 16 inch bowie knife in that situation, it would have made defending our home a hell of a lot easier. But I didn't have the luxury of pausing reality and asking them kindly for time to select a better tool to defend us with. I got what I got and had to make do. I could have potentially been given a Benchmade black class folding knife if it happened on a different date and I would like to know the limits of each tool I own, as do most people in any trade or envirioment.
About laws and fixed blades, are you aware that not everybody is allowed to just walk around with a crocodile dundee sized fighting knife, not everybody lives in your state or country, yes it would be glorious if we could all walk around freely carrying British military sabres, concealed handguns and a back up boot dagger, but sadly not all of us can or we could end up in jail for a very long time.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I haven't seen a video yet of someone simulating a pommel strike while holding the knife in a manner consistent with how it would be held in actual use....with the result being a failed lock.

A strike isn't even necessary to determine if the lock can be disengaged. Grip the knife in your dominant hand in the same manner as would be used during combat. Using the other hand, press onto the Axis lock release in an attempt to disengage the lock. Can it be unlocked, and the blade closed, without adjusting the dominant hand to allow it to occur?

Until this is shown, I will not believe that a problem exists. As I previously stated, a leather glove can be worn for protection.


The phrase "put up, or shut up", comes to mind.

Do you not own a Benchmade knife? because I just did this and of course the blade closed, why would you think holding an xis lock knife by the handle would stop the axis lock from being opened and closed, it's not a frame lock, putting pressure on the scales does nothing to increase the lock up. I'll upload the video to my YouTube channel and post the video here as soon as it finishes uploading.
Put up or shut up, sure I'll put up,I wonder why you would even assume holding the knife will stop the lock bar moving.

 

[Grizzm@n]

.....because when I hold the Freek and Griptilians (both with G10 scales) that I own, in a manner I'd use if my life depended my holding onto the knife, my thumb, or pinkie side edge of my hand (in a reverse grip), are in direct contact with the Axis lock release. The release can't move since it's being held in position by my hand. If the release can't move, then the blade can't close.

If the Benchmade knife with Axis lock you own has a scale design that doesn't position the lock under, or against, the thumb, while the knife is solidly held in a standard manner (or you intentionally hold the handle lower to eliminate this contact), then the thumb cannot stop the Axis release from moving.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I haven't seen a video yet of someone simulating a pommel strike while holding the knife in a manner consistent with how it would be held in actual use....with the result being a failed lock.

A strike isn't even necessary to determine if the lock can be disengaged. Grip the knife in your dominant hand in the same manner as would be used during combat. Using the other hand, press onto the Axis lock release in an attempt to disengage the lock. Can it be unlocked, and the blade closed, without adjusting the dominant hand to allow it to occur?

Until this is shown, I will not believe that a problem exists. As I previously stated, a leather glove can be worn for protection.


The phrase "put up, or shut up", comes to mind.

Now if what you are implying is that during a pommel strike your hand physically grips onto the axis lock. If you were to grab the lock buttons while exerting downward force this would make the knife disengage even faster, because your hand would be actively opening the lock. So either way your statement makes no sense. But here is the test you asked for.

 

[Centermass]

The fact remains only the individual can determine what works best for them in their application.

But, since we’re going there, yes, I would tell someone they should maintain their semi auto firearm and there will be much higher likelihood that it will work properly, but the possibility it will fail still exists, and I accept this... which is why you should train. I also advocate for revolvers for self defense carry for the very reason you brought up. There IS a significantly lower likelihood of a revolver jamming if in a grappling situation. The trade off is diminished ammunition capacity, so you should train to make those fewer shots count.

In my circumstance, I can choose whatever firearm I want to carry when I’m off duty, but I don’t get to choose what I carry while ON duty. My agency makes that decision for me, and, it’s a semi auto pistol. I don’t even get to pick WHICH semi auto pistol, it’s standard issue, and not my preferred choice. That’s for lots of reasons besides my personal preference and comfort, but I have to deal with it. So, we train.

Anyone who understands folding knives, even a little, should understand the possibility of failure when we’re talking about the inherent design flaws of a folding knife... ANY folding knife, regardless of lock type, when they are put into extreme use. It is incumbent upon the user to know and understand those limits, be aware of the potential risks, and either train to prepare for and work around them, if they can’t find something else that better suits their needs. To my knowledge, Benchmade makes no such claim that failure is impossible.

If you feel your testing is helpful by raising awareness of this particular issue, fine. But understand you cast aspersions in a forum clearly devoted to fans of the brand, whether intentionally or not. What I think everyone else here is saying is, yeah, we’re aware, and it seems like common sense physics that we’re willing to work around, given the general unlikelihood for normal, or even tactical folks, to need to pommel strike anyone in a knife fight. Not that it’s some big conspiracy on Benchmade’s part to dupe “tactical” buyers just because it’s not tactical enough for you, given your assertion that a pommel strike is a possible option, however remote.

As stated numerous times before, if it doesn’t work for you, there are plenty of other options out there. Hell, design a new one, patent it, license it to Benchmade, and get paid rightly.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

The fact remains only the individual can determine what works best for them in their application.

But, since we’re going there, yes, I would tell someone they should maintain their semi auto firearm and there will be much higher likelihood that it will work properly, but the possibility it will fail still exists, and I accept this... which is why you should train. I also advocate for revolvers for self defense carry for the very reason you brought up. There IS a significantly lower likelihood of a revolver jamming if in a grappling situation. The trade off is diminished ammunition capacity, so you should train to make those fewer shots count.

In my circumstance, I can choose whatever firearm I want to carry when I’m off duty, but I don’t get to choose what I carry while ON duty. My agency makes that decision for me, and, it’s a semi auto pistol. I don’t even get to pick WHICH semi auto pistol, it’s standard issue, and not my preferred choice. That’s for lots of reasons besides my personal preference and comfort, but I have to deal with it. So, we train.

Anyone who understands folding knives, even a little, should understand the possibility of failure when we’re talking about the inherent design flaws of a folding knife... ANY folding knife, regardless of lock type, when they are put into extreme use. It is incumbent upon the user to know and understand those limits, be aware of the potential risks, and either train to prepare for and work around them, if they can’t find something else that better suits their needs. To my knowledge, Benchmade makes no such claim that failure is impossible.

If you feel your testing is helpful by raising awareness of this particular issue, fine. But understand you cast aspersions in a forum clearly devoted to fans of the brand, whether intentionally or not. What I think everyone else here is saying is, yeah, we’re aware, and it seems like common sense physics that we’re willing to work around, given the general unlikelihood for normal, or even tactical folks, to need to pommel strike anyone in a knife fight. Not that it’s some big conspiracy on Benchmade’s part to dupe “tactical” buyers just because it’s not tactical enough for you, given your assertion that a pommel strike is a possible option, however remote.

As stated numerous times before, if it doesn’t work for you, there are plenty of other options out there. Hell, design a new one, patent it, license it to Benchmade, and get paid rightly.

Well you have people actively arguing right here in this very thread that "It doesn't happen" I just had to upload another video gripping the knife and using my other hand to disengage the lock to even convince him that the problem exists. So saying "We are all aware of this" is not true. I have had quite a few folding knife collectors tell me that they were not aware of this problem, and they thanked me for showing them the potential risk and failure point of Benchmade Axis locks. Your objection is that I might offend people who enjoy Benchmade knives? That seems to be what your are saying to me, that what I just demonstrated might in some way be a negative thing, because fans of the knife brand will take offense to it.
That is honestly not a good reason and comes off as almost unprofessional of you especially in your line of work, where you seem to be concerned with risk assesment and safety, and most importantly understanding the tools you are using. You cannot assume everybody understands what you understand becuase that's not how people work. Also there is evidence right here in this very thread and on my Youtube channel that people do not understand this about the axis lock, you have people who are thankful for the information, many of the people that commented on my first video practice blade based martial arts, and collect and carry folding knives.
When you say statements like "Anybody who understands folding knives even a little should already know this" is 1) condescending and 2) a fatal assumption. Read Grizzmans comment right above you, he doesn't even believe the lock can disengage if you grab it and use a pommel strike, and he is right here on bladeforums in the Benchmade section no less, so if somebody who is on bladeforums in the Benchmade section doesn't even understand this, why would you assume every john dick and harry watching YouTube will know this.
It seems like you can already see I'm trying to help people understand when this lock fails, and maybe avoid a few accidents, yet you are seriously putting "Offending Benchmade fans" above demonstrating a potential risk. Are you one of those Benchmade fans that took offense to my demonstration, because that's what i'm starting to think.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Benchmades work just fine for tactical applications... they’re just not perfect for this made up scenario never likely to occur outside of a “knife fighting dojo”.

Right, Benchmade axis lock knives are perfect for tactical hard use, except I'm getting reports within 5 mins of uploading videos from Gentlemen in California that they almost lost a finger simply breaking down cardboard boxes and accidentally disengaging the lock bar.


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Here @Centermass, here's one of those people you said doesn't exist because everybody who understands folding knives even a little bit already knows the axis lock isn't fit for hard use tactical applications. Maybe you should be helping me inform these guys if you really care about informing people to use the right tool for the right job, because here's a guy saying Benchmade axis lock knives are perfect for tactical use.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

^^Yup, just someone looking for a way, to go out of their way, to make something fail even though in normal use, they would never be in that situation.

Here is a first hand account from a man in California, who just reached out to me, saying he almost had a bad accident breaking down cardboard boxes with a bugout axis lock knife. Whcih we all know is a situation nobody would ever be in right, I mean who breaks down cardboard with folding knives.

"I have wondered about this exact thing, even while cutting. I had a cardboard box that had some seriously thick walls and I didn’t expect them to be so rigid— when I started to reallly grip into my bugout, I was feeling the axis lock wiggle a touch and it was NOT a comfortable feeling, feeling like I was about to lose a digit with the amount of force I was using. I don’t know if I’ll be using my BM’s for anything too heavy, and DEF not for defense (or like we say in America “Da Fence!”) cheers from Cali."

Does his example sound outlandish to you?

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Or...tighten the pivot a bit. The whole notion of "Drop shutting" is silly (and offtopic....)

Not silly at all, drop shutting is not a "notion" when it comes to Benchmade knives, most Benchmade knife users have their knives adjusted so they get drop shutting free fall action when closing the knife. Saying tighten the pivot is good advice for any folding knife when doing hard use. This doesn't take away from the point though that most users do have their knife adjusted to be drop shutty.
You can make any knife almost resist spine whack failure test by tightening the pivot so much that it will hardly even move. But when spine whack tests are conducted you do not tighten the pivots up as much as humanly possible, you have them set at regular factory tolerance that any average person would have the knife level at.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

If pommel strikes are a big deal for you, and Benchmade knives don’t fit your need, buy a new knife.

Benchmade isn’t going to just suddenly stop making the axis lock just because a self proclaimed “knife fighting expert” has an issue. It’s statistically insignificant.

A knife is a cutting instrument. What next? Complaints about hammers not being able to cut tomatoes? Or screwdrivers that don’t make great chisels? There are plenty of other knives out there that pommel just fine if that’s your thing.

I have plenty of knives and blades thankyou, 4 cutlery boxes full of folders, a safe full of swords and shelves full of fixed blades. The fact that I did this test was not because I only own a single Benchmade knife and that is my only option. I did this test to demonstrate to other knife owners that the lock fails when subjected to downward impact force.
These knives are marketed and sold as tactical knives which implies self defense and hard use, I am putting them through these tests because they are not just sold as "Light use fine cutting tools" they are being sold as weapons.