Benefits of needle thrust bearings?

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Jul 10, 2011
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I recently bought a knife that uses needle thrust bearings instead of your normal ball bearings. Does anyone know what the particular benefit to a configuration like this? I wouldn't say the knife is exceptionally smooth, but it does have a lot of lockbar tension (on top of the many other factors that affect the smoothness of a knife). Is the increased surface area in comparison to ball bearings a benefit or possible detriment.
 
I thought the whole point of ball bearings was to reduce the surface area of contact.

Might as well go with a washer.
 
I'd guess that needle bearings would reduce lateral blade play -- and maybe take up less space -- but ball bearings would have a little less resistance.
 
The point of a needle bearing system is that it combines the best of bearings and eashers in one system. Needle bearings reduce friction without eliminating much of the lateral support of a washer. There is more contact than ball bearings but not necessarily more friction. And when you tighten the pivot the needle bearings are much less likely to dig into raw titanium. Honestly if paired with good work i think needle bearings are a better choice but they rquire more precision. They arent goint to wear a race over time like ball bearings and all your surfaces need to be spot on or you can get binding.


I thought the whole point of ball bearings was to reduce the surface area of contact.

Might as well go with a washer.

You may want to tell that to rj martin. He has used needle bearings in his folders for many years. And he wrote the book on flippers.
 
You could also mail RJ Martin a $10 knife with washers that is ultra smooth.


If you must have bearings, needle bearings make more sense. But only if it makes any sense at all to use bearings on something as simple and hopefully trouble free as a knife. The engineering argument for bearings doesn't make a lot of sense when most of the bearing knives don't have hardened races - like any real bearing system would. The smoothness argument is nice, except when you have washer systems that are seemingly as smooth.
 
I do not care for them at all. I have worked on a few chinese frame locks and some imitation style knives for a few customers that could not afford much.
They were junk and all used those needle washers. Horrible gritty action on every single one. They have their uses, but not in a knife. IMO.
 
You could also mail RJ Martin a $10 knife with washers that is ultra smooth.


If you must have bearings, needle bearings make more sense. But only if it makes any sense at all to use bearings on something as simple and hopefully trouble free as a knife. The engineering argument for bearings doesn't make a lot of sense when most of the bearing knives don't have hardened races - like any real bearing system would. The smoothness argument is nice, except when you have washer systems that are seemingly as smooth.

How is at relavent? This isnt about if bearings are better or worse than washers. But since you went there.
In most cases knives arent seeing the lateral stresses that would require a hardened race to begin with. but for those like you who say these things you should know that all true ikbs system knives have work hardened races made from intentionally cold rolling the race into the titanium. This race is work hardened and completely adequate for its purpose. And for the knives with bearings riding on titanium without those forced races the only thing that is going to happen is that those races will form and the wear will cease. But you should also know that the majority of bearing knife manufacturers do in fact use hardened steel inserts for the bearings to ride on. In fact i only know of a single production company who hasnt adopted the practice. And if i had to guess why they havent is because in the numerous years these knives have been out an actual "problem" never arose. The wear starts a race forms and the wear ceases. And you are also assuming that everyone buys bearing equipped knives for smoothness. I know i dont.
 
What purpleedc said. It is the more "proper" way of setting up a pivoting gizmo. Perfect would be angled roller bearings, like the front hub of a car.

A bit overkill probably though...
 
What purpleedc said. It is the more "proper" way of setting up a pivoting gizmo. Perfect would be angled roller bearings, like the front hub of a car.

A bit overkill probably though...

To many of us bearings of any kind are overkill for the pivot. I have never opened one of my knives and thought, "Gee, I wish this had bearings to make it easier to open!" I am in the process of rebuilding a classic bicycle and as I fiddle to fit the bearings in the races and get them adjusted properly I think, "Thank goodness the blade pivot bearing application works just fine with PB or teflon washers!
 
I just had a post showcasing long term wear on ti with bearings. No ill effects and the races are deep, dented and damaged from lateral torque. "Bearing wear on ti" is a moot point.

Funny how a lot who denounce bearings for the wear they will impart on non hardened races, will turn around and denounce lock bar inserts because "I have ti framelocks that are X years old and the lock bar hasn't moved, ti lockbar wear is not something to be worried about"
 
I think it is a question of better for what. Washers, bushings, bearings, they all have their place, but it really is a matter of preference toward a goal. Is the goal the strongest knife against lateral forces? The snarky answer is "none of the above, get a fixed blade". :D

Seriously though, various makers use various materials based on (hopefully) what best serves their intended purpose...but somettimes they just use what is available and what they can work with the best....and that may or may not be the most scientifically grounded solution to a problem, but not every maker has the inclination to work out all the science and engineering;)
 
Let's get back to the topic...

IMO, thrust/needle bearings will be just a functional as ball bearings; granted, that both systems are engineered correctly. Some could speculate that it would be better for "lateral force", but that hasn't seemed to be an issue for standard bearing systems unless someone wants to discuss the difference between ball/washers/thrust. That's really the only time I see lateral force come up. If that's the case, why don't we stick to washers if lateral force is an issue? (Rhetorical Q)...

I think it comes down to the entire package. A crappy knife, engineered with thrust/needle bearings will still be a crappy knife. I've had knives with a lot of different bearing systems that were good and bad, and the overall design is what made the knife suck, not the selection of bearings.
 
I thought the whole point of ball bearings was to reduce the surface area of contact.

Might as well go with a washer.

That's not how bearings work. With washers, the pieces are sliding relative to each other. With bearings, the bearings are rolling between the two surfaces. There should be no linear relative motion between the contact point of the bearing and its race.

Also, reducing surface area in contact will not serve to reduce friction. Friction has to do with normal force and the coefficient of friction between two materials. If you just wanted to reduce contact area, you could cut away 90% of the material on your Teflon washers. I don't think you would be very impressed with the results.
 
That's not how bearings work. With washers, the pieces are sliding relative to each other. With bearings, the bearings are rolling between the two surfaces. There should be no linear relative motion between the contact point of the bearing and its race.

Also, reducing surface area in contact will not serve to reduce friction. Friction has to do with normal force and the coefficient of friction between two materials. If you just wanted to reduce contact area, you could cut away 90% of the material on your Teflon washers. I don't think you would be very impressed with the results.

Some of the Sebenzas have washers with holes in them to reduce surface area to decrease friction.


And you are also assuming that everyone buys bearing equipped knives for smoothness. I know i dont.
Purple, please explain what the purpose of a bearing system would be if not "smoothness" (decreased friction)?


And I really don't understand this titanium work hardening thing. That's usually what results in galling.
 
To many of us bearings of any kind are overkill for the pivot. I have never opened one of my knives and thought, "Gee, I wish this had bearings to make it easier to open!" I am in the process of rebuilding a classic bicycle and as I fiddle to fit the bearings in the races and get them adjusted properly I think, "Thank goodness the blade pivot bearing application works just fine with PB or teflon washers!

I agree on all points.


Some of the Sebenzas have washers with holes in them to reduce surface area to decrease friction.

Purple, please explain what the purpose of a bearing system would be if not "smoothness" (decreased friction)?

They have holes so grease stays inside better.

A bearing systems purpose is percieved smoothness. Everyone has felt how smooth bearings are, be it bikes or skate wheels. So the natural summary is: Bearing = smooth. Pivot bearing? Must be smoother.

Keep in mind the pistons in your car where they connect to the crankshaft also use washers. (Well, technically bearings without balls.)
 
Some of the Sebenzas have washers with holes in them to reduce surface area to decrease friction.

Holes in washers can serve to hold grease to increase time between lubrication. Friction is independent of surface area in contact.
 
To many of us bearings of any kind are overkill for the pivot. I have never opened one of my knives and thought, "Gee, I wish this had bearings to make it easier to open!" I am in the process of rebuilding a classic bicycle and as I fiddle to fit the bearings in the races and get them adjusted properly I think, "Thank goodness the blade pivot bearing application works just fine with PB or teflon washers!

And there is nothing wrong with your opinion. But what you like and what i like are two different things. Neither of us is wrong.
 
Some of the Sebenzas have washers with holes in them to reduce surface area to decrease friction.



Purple, please explain what the purpose of a bearing system would be if not "smoothness" (decreased friction)?


And I really don't understand this titanium work hardening thing. That's usually what results in galling.

I choose bearings because in my case i am not concerned in the slightest about damage from lateral force. It just doesnt present itself as a problem in my daily activities. And the reason i prefer them is because i despise most pivot assemblies. Bearings are much less sensitive to pinching. the design is much more forgiving to increased torque being applied by the pivot. They have a much larger sweet spot for adjusting pivot tension.

Also i feel you are confusing decreasing friction with increasing smoothness and reducing resistance. They are separate things. The perceived smoothness of a knife is mostly felt in the detent ball, not the actual pivot. The ability for that ball to glide along the tang is affected by many things none of which have to do with the pivot. The smoothest pivot in the world can be completly overshadowed by a detent ball digging into the blade. Smooth is how the blade feels as its moving. When considering that a sebenza can be just as smooth feeling as a bearing equipped knife. But the sebenza will have more stiction and resistance to get that blade moving. If you can reduce the friction you can reduce the amount of torque needed to get that blade moving. But if you choose to still apply that same amount of torque to a knife with bearings regardelss it will have the same smoothness but the speed will be increased.

The last term is resistance. I call it stiction. I personally dont like it. Some like to take a sebenza and polish the washers to get it "smoother". Maybe as the blade is moving but i find two completely polished surfaces pushed up against each other and any space between them being taken up by grease actually makes those surfaces stick together. It requires more force to get them moving because the washers are acting like suction cups. get them moving and they slip fine but i prefer washers to be turned as there will be less microscopic surface areas coming together and the turned surface of a washer will carry lubricant where a polished washer will push it out leaving only enough to create a vacuum with the surface its being stuck to. But even with resistance and friction a pivot will feel smooth as its gliding.

Now dont get me wrong a bearing system is not on any way going to give you a cutting performance advantage. My desire for them is very similar to my infatuation with automatic knives. Its not a need but a want based on my likes. And i find them much easier to dial in to my liking.

On to work hardening. Work hardening is not galling. That is when to surfaces wear by actually sticking. In the case of work hardening you are intentionally crushing the titanium, increasing the surface hardness of the material bu crushing it. I dont know all the intricacies of how or why it happens but you can understand the concept with a paperclip.

If you take a paperclip and yield (permanantly bend) the metal back and forth it heats up, and if you bend in that same spot enough times the material becomes stiff and harder to manipulate. Keep doing it long enough and you will harden the material so much by cold working it that it will actually beome brittle and break in half but not before you have increased the hardness at the point where you were flexing it. When a hard beari g rides on titanium it is not removing metal but crushing it. Pushing it down and compressing it. Gradually the bearings push deeper and deeper. The titanium at that point is pushing back on the bearing and hardening in the process. As the balls go deeper it is becoming harder and harder to do so because the ti is not only getting stro ger but the surface contact is oncreasing and the race is now cupping and cradling the ball and supporting it rather than just having the acute bottom of the ball digging in a localized area.

In other words the balls only crush the titanium so much before it is too hard and supports the bearing to well for it to have any negative effects. Flavio ikoma, terry guinn and other makers intentionally force that race into the titanium and ito this day i have never seen a single report of a failure in regardes to bearings wearing on titanium.
 
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Holes in washers can serve to hold grease to increase time between lubrication. Friction is independent of surface area in contact.

Ok, let me preface this post by saying that I am not an engineer and have no technical expertise in the field. I am in no way trying to dispute discredit or troll your post. That being said;

Can you explain to me please how friction and surface area are not related ( I believe this is what you are saying)? It would seem to me to make sense that a decrease in surface area between two opposing pieces would also decrease friction. There must be a physical principal that I am unaware of. Once again, not disputing, just trying to learn something. Thanks.
 
Ok, let me preface this post by saying that I am not an engineer and have no technical expertise in the field. I am in no way trying to dispute discredit or troll your post. That being said;

Can you explain to me please how friction and surface area are not related ( I believe this is what you are saying)? It would seem to me to make sense that a decrease in surface area between two opposing pieces would also decrease friction. There must be a physical principal that I am unaware of. Once again, not disputing, just trying to learn something. Thanks.

Friction force is calculated as the coefficient of friction multiplied by the normal force (force perpendicular to the contact surface). Neither is dependent on surface area in contact. Changing surface area does, however, effect pressure (force per unit area). Subjecting an object to high external pressure leads to high internal stresses, which could lead to deformation of the object. Different materials have different amounts of resistance to deformation. I am quickly getting off topic...let me know if you need some more info :o
 
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