Best Bivy for Winter Outings?

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When I was assembling a snowshoeing survival kit for some friends' daughter, I received several helpful suggestions for emergency cold weather bivy bags and wanted to follow up on the topic. My assumptions are that the kit would be used where overnight temperatures are below freezing and an overnight campout is not planned. I'm also assuming someone will be able to get themselves off the snow/cold ground and will have some sort of shelter sheet (I carry my silnylon poncho).

The little mylar space bags are the lightest/cheapest at around a couple ounces and a few bucks. Stepping up from there, you find the Adventure Medical Kits Heat Sheet items for a little more weight and expense. At about 6.5 ounces and $30 is the AMK Thermo-Lite Bivy, which is said to be substantially stronger and better protection than the lighter alternatives. However, I read complaints from several folks about the amount of condensation that develops, despite the venting system. A couple felt it created a situation that might be almost as dangerous as not having the AMK Bivy.

That got me to thinking about something mentioned by our brother Bearthedog on a backpacking trip. He had an ultralight backpacker's quilt and said that he might be able to produce them commercially someday. As I recall, it weighed less than 10 ounces and provided insulation, not just a covering. Equally important, it was breathable. [Note that I've seen a bunch of quilts already commercially available from about $100-300+ and weighing around 9-16+ ounces, depending upon fabric and insulation.]

The next step up from there would be to carry one of the high-quality, ultralight sleeping bags weighing a bit over a pound. Examples are the Marmot Atom and comparable bags from Feathered Friends and Western Mountaineering (HighLite). They aren't rated for sub-freezing temps but would certainly make a person much more comfy. Of course, these bags will set one back several hundred bucks and would have to serve dual duty as summer bags. As with the fairly costly quilts, I couldn't justify buying one solely for a cold weather survival kit.

So where would you draw the line? Go minimalist on weight and cost, carry an expensive one pound bag or split the difference?

Thanks for your advice,

DancesWithKnives
 
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I just bought a silk sleeping bag liner which I can wear as a scarf, and that will provide a small amount of insulation should I need it for emergencies. It's rated to add 10 degrees (F) to a sleeping bag, not much but it's better than nothing (barely).

As far as the AMK bags trapping moisture: as long as you stay in the bag, it's not a problem. The AMK bags will do a great job of blocking the wind, and they are highly visible to help searchers find you. Getting out in the morning will be a problem, as you will be moist (I've used silnylon bivy bags that are totally waterproof, with the exact same issue), but having a fire or simply walking at a brisk pace will warm you up and allow you to dry off decently quickly.

If you find a quilt or sleeping bag made with Pertex fabric, those are slightly water repellent and wind repellent while being quite breathable. I think a sleeping bag is the only place that I would trust a waterproof/repellent + breathable fabric to actually work-since you will be in it long enough for the moisture to actually move through it.

I would say go for a nice, mid/high end synthetic sleeping bag rated for around 40 degrees (F), and couple it with a mylar bivy bag from AMK. This would provide light weight, plus insulation, water resistance, wind resistance, and not be too ridiculous in terms of $$. The bag would also double duty as a summer bag.

I'm thinking that you should be adequately dressed for at least daytime temps if you are out and about, so you shouldn't need too much additional insulation to get through the night.

Something like these:
http://www.rei.com/product/731835
http://www.rei.com/product/747887

I recommend synthetic because it will handle moisture better, which is a concern with both winter and in a waterproof bivy bag that traps moisture. An additional thought is that a survival situation could easily result in breaking through ice and getting wet, which could include the bag (unless a waterproof of some sort is used, like gallon ziplock style bags for the kit). There are copious stories of Wiggy's sleeping bag users crawling into their bags soaked, and waking up dry and warm. It seems to me that just about all modern synthetic insulators that are hydrophobic (basically all of them) will allow exactly the same advantage.
 
Thanks for the good suggestions!

How's that special long-term project of yours going? Well, I hope.

DancesWithKnives
 
No problem! AmeriCorps is going well, I'm shipping off to New Orleans in about a week, staying through Mardi Gras. We'll be working on flood damage from Katrina.

I was just out camping on Monday, and it got down to around 6 or 7 degrees that night. I had my 30 degree bag, plus my clothing (which was slightly inadequate for afternoon/nighttime comfort), and I was fine except for my feet. So I'm thinking if you are actually wearing appropriate clothing, a lesser bag will probably work well.

I had an experience last year winter camping where I got my fire going, and then had to stand about 4 feet away shivering and watching it whip violently back and forth for a couple of hours due to the very high winds (couldn't get close enough for fear of setting myself on fire/smoke in my eyes). So it's good to carry insulation/shelter and not depend on fire to keep you warm.
 
Glad to hear it's progressing well for you!

Your point is well taken. I was up in the Mojave desert about a month ago when a snowstorm hit the CA mountains. We got sporadic rain and low temps with high winds that kept changing direction. It would have been very difficult to stay warm off of a fire alone.

Best of success,

DancesWithKnives
 
I have mixed feelings about bivy bags........

on one hand they are great for sealing mother nature out, and you can put them right in the snow and wet (depending on the design), with your sleeping pad INSIDE (better ground insulation), and with a good sleeping bag they keep you dry and warm.

on the other hand if used for emergencies with no pad or sleeping bag, one can get drenched with condensation. Cold and clammy aint my idea of fun

any way you can try a used one out?
 
I have the Blizzard Survival Bag, here, a silk liner and 4 self adhesive, 5" x 4" 12 hour body warmer heat pads as an emergency winter bivvy.

The Blizzard Survival Bag has a 3 layer, elasticated 'shell' which is rated as;
# Warmth: 8 Togs - equal to a medium weight regular sleeping bag.
# Weather protection: fully waterproof and windproof.

reflexcell.jpg

blizzard-bag-use.jpg


The BSB, silk liner and heat pads take up a tiny amount of space, yet protect against the elements, whilst retaining and (if needed) generating heat. The Aero Vest would also be worth including, but as I wear a Stormy Seas EXP100 (inflatable) Life Vest, have not done so.

AeroVest_400.jpg
 
Bushman5: When I was young I once wrapped a non-breathable tarp around a sleeping bag and noted the consequences that you mentioned---trapped condensation and a moist, clammy feeling. I think I can agree with you without trying a non-breathable bivy.

Talfuchre: Good observation. My reservation about a Gore-tex bivy would be weight/cost vs. benefit. I'm wondering whether such a bivy would weigh and cost as much or more than a Bearthedog type backpacker's quilt without providing an insulating layer? I don't know. But the Goretex bivy would likely keep the weather off you without condensation. Thanks for the suggestion.

AeroNautiCal: I really appreciate the link to your BSB. I was not previously familiar with that product. The price seems moderate. It looks like it weighs about twice what an AMK Thermo-Lite Bivy weighs and the multi-layer shell may provide more insulating value. The main limitation seems to be that it doesn't appear to address the condensation issue.

Thanks to all for the great input!

DancesWithKnives
 
I'd say waterproof bivy bags are mostly for rainy weather. In very cold weather, more breathable, water resistant should do better... but I'd still get some waterproof ground sheets.
Plastic bivy bags will condensate a lot period.
In a emergency I'd try a vapor barrier set up.
There are copious stories of Wiggy's sleeping bag users crawling into their bags soaked, and waking up dry and warm.
about wiggy's, there are lots of claims and little facts.
 
I use the Cabelas XPG Bivy when I know I won't be using a tent. I also bring it for winter day hiking/shoeing and also pack the Sea-to-Summit Reactor for some extra warmth in case of an emergency situation. Like many here, I carry more kit for winter day activities given the increased risk:

SANY0019-3.jpg
 
Ravaillac: Good points. I often carry a closed cell foam pad to keep me off the snow and a silnylon poncho/tarp to suspend above me. The backpacking quilt by Bearthedog uses synthetic insulation to address the issues Siguy noted. As for Wiggy's, they certainly generate a lot of debate but they aren't really a consideration for me because I don't want to go much over a pound for an emergency bag. If I did go heavier, I'd take my Marmot Helium at 1 lb 13 oz.

One thing I like about the insulated backpacker's quilt is that I could probably carry it essentially for free as far as weight goes. Normally I wear a merino wool or fleece top and carry a 12 oz. Western Mountaineering Flight Jacket in my pack. I could probably substitute the quilt and just wrap it around myself for any extended sit down.

Brians: I saw the Sea to Summit Reactor sleeping bag liner on Campmor's website. They claim it is breathable Thermo-Lite. As I recall, it's around 9 ounces and $50. I'm curious whether you've had any opportunities to test the Reactor out?

Thanks again,

DancesWithKnives
 
Brians: I saw the Sea to Summit Reactor sleeping bag liner on Campmor's website. They claim it is breathable Thermo-Lite. As I recall, it's around 9 ounces and $50. I'm curious whether you've had any opportunities to test the Reactor out?

Thanks again,

DancesWithKnives

DWK,

It's thin and probably doesn't add the full 15 degrees they say. But it did add, I'd say, about 10 degrees to my summer bag when used last spring when it got colder than I expected on a fly-fishing trip.

It also added a fleece-like comfort/feel as I opted to use it rather than put extra clothing on.

B
 
You didn't mention a sensation of condensation build up so I'm assuming it did breathe as advertised?

Thanks very much for relating your experience. It sounds better than the regular AMK Thermo-Lite Bivy so long as you are protected from rain/wet ground by other means.

DancesWithKnives
 
You didn't mention a sensation of condensation build up so I'm assuming it did breathe as advertised?

Thanks very much for relating your experience. It sounds better than the regular AMK Thermo-Lite Bivy so long as you are protected from rain/wet ground by other means.

DancesWithKnives

I haven't noticed any build-up in the XPG Bivy, at least not enough to see any staining or performance decrease in the bags I have, which are synthetics.

I'd love to get a WM bag though :thumbup:
 
One of my buddies bought his wife a WM bag a half dozen years ago and it is a great piece of equipment. However, they are a bit tight for my 6 ft, 225 lb frame. The Marmot Helium fits me MUCH better. Of course, that lucky SOB married a gal who is a competitive ocean endurance swimmer so she doesn't have problems with getting into a bag. I have a custom Feathered Friends expedition overbag and it is also a fine item of gear.

Thanks again,

DancesWithKnives
 
Aero, that inflatable vest idea sounds mighty handy! I'll have to look into those. That bivy is also the slickest I've ever seen, built in insulation and elastic, neat.

My experience with the AMK:
The other mylar bivies won't be much more breathable, but the venting system on the AMK wants to velcro closed on itself, so it's probably not by much; i.e. feel like you slept in a garbage bag. It is much more durable tho, and reusable. Can be completely opened into a tapered sheet. It can get damp, but the only time I had it actually get a bit wet was when I had a junglebag inside, and the footbox area became a bit slick. I'll admit, I often bring it along just in case, but I haven't crawled back inside since and don't really look forward to waking up so clammy again; I'll have to give it another shot. Amount of condensation from a mylar blanket with loose drape is more tolerable, but draftier, and you still have to be careful not to shoot your breath down in there. Mylar bonuses seem biggest in lieu of a shelter, to keep the weather off.

It was comfier with a microfleece liner, but they aren't so compact. Got the Reactor synthetic liner that was supposed to add 15*F (didn't believe it was true then, and I still don't:o). More for keeping the bag clean, added comfort, and dries quickly. Much as I like the liner, I'd caution about expecting much warmth, if you're already wearing longjons. It keeps potentially cold fabric from direct contact with your skin, and helps with a slight micro-climate. Maybe a little pouch or sock to safely contain some disposable handwarmers would be another easy and low-bulk option for added warmth.

Locally, Sports Authority has a down throw and stuff sack for $20, 4'x5', by Alpine Design. Might be too short for the kid (and certainly coming up short on you), but perhaps there are similar products available, not necessarily from high end outfitters. I think I've seen them in homemaker kind'a stores like Sears or LL Bean. For something more applicable and extra bread, handmade would be awesome, but those Jacks R Better or some such are pretty nifty if a bit awkward.. Capes are still cool, right??:D Some fabric & insulation from owfinc.com and a sewing machine could probably set you up with a tailored quilt pretty quick, if you know exactly what you want and don't mind a project.

Inside a shelter with something to sleep on as mentioned, the kid with the sleeping bag is going to sleep the warmest. Like many suggested, I'd opt for a synthetic, if it's not too big, especially in a survival kit, to reduce the Murphy-factor. Kid might even be comfortable, and want to do it again! :thumbup: If we're talking for you, then just get up, stomp your feet abit, and dance with knives til you're warm again! maybe even prep some wood n feed the fire while at it ;):D Just havin fun, stay warm out there! :)
 
When I was assembling a snowshoeing survival kit for some friends' daughter, I received several helpful suggestions for emergency cold weather bivy bags and wanted to follow up on the topic. My assumptions are that the kit would be used where overnight temperatures are below freezing and an overnight campout is not planned.
I'm sure you've already done this or planned this, but you should spend some time to teach her how to use natural insulation as an adjunct to whatever you ultimately buy.
 
NaturalWorld: Thanks---that's extremely useful information!

Nemoaz: The young lady is a college athlete in Maine but her parents and I are in Los Smogeles. Her folks are going to have to sign her up for some hands-on training back East because logistically, I can't do it. Unfortunately, the best I can do is some e-mail/phone instruction---which is better than nothing but obviously not sufficient. I agree with you on natural insulation and the survival kit contains some contractor size/thickness trash bags for that purpose. Thanks for the reminder.:thumbup:

DancesWithKnives
 
if you hit the lotto- here's an option :)

http://www.nunatakusa.com/sleeping_bag_akula.html

I haven't hit the lotto so I'll be sticking w/ the AMK bivy, if forced out a night my plan is to build a debris shelter w/ a very thick floor- I'll roll my 1/8" ensolite pad on top of that- the main beam will have my poncho tarp over the top to keep snow out (and help keep heat in) it will be mucho thick w/ lots of snow piled on top- the snow should do a great job of sealing things up and keeping wind out. I'll use one of my trash bag filled w/ debris, snow or both as a door. All my clothes will be on and then into the bivy, w/ some luck I won't be a popsicle come morning :)

my secret weapon is a couple of small 8-10 hour candles, burned intermittently- I haven't tried it in a winter shelter, but was very pleasantly surprised on how much heat they added to debris shelter built last spring

I want to be well prepared on a winter day hike, but not weighed down so much that I might as well be doing an overnighter (ie sleeping bag/pad/bivy)
 
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