Best blade for reverse grip?

V

Vagabond

Joined
Apr 22, 2004
Messages
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Hi all, longtime listener, first time caller so to speak... :)

I've been planning to purchase a moderately priced and sized knife compatible with the edge-in reverse grip, along with a custom made aluminum/production made trainer. I would wish for it to be stainless steel but I could settle for carbon steel should that prove to be necessary, however I would like it to have as strong a point as possible. I just can't make my mind up even after having pondered the issue for months, therefore I thought I'd bring the question up here.

What would you recommend out of these:

- Benchmade McHenry & Williams 710 plain edge with trainer

- Spyderco Endura with trainer (I'm relatively new to knives and the only Spydercos I currently own are a Native Lightweight and a Cricket, both of which I'm very satisfied with)

- Spyderco Black Coated Temperance with trainer

- SOG Desert Dagger with Warriorcraft trainer

- Camillus Large Bootknife

- Cold Steel SRK

- Cold Steel ODA (carbon V)

- Cold Steel Kobun (carbon v, I had one in 420 which I sold, not sure I like american tanto points and the edge retention was LOUSY)

- CRKT M-16 Weehawk Zytel handle plain edge

- Benchmade Rant MDP

- Katz Alley Kat medium size

- Kershaw Roughneck II

- Baby Hattori Fighter

- Ka-Bar Next Generation Plain Edge


Like many others I am not a big fan of Lynn Thompson or Cold Steel's move towards 420 sub quenched, although I like the design of several Cold Steel knives, most notably the OSS and ODA.
The Benchmade knives I currently own (a Nimravus, an AFCK axis, a Griptilian MDP and a Mel Pardue 350) have all performed excellently which would probably make the Rant and the 710 my primary choices, only it might prove to be slightly problematic to find a trainer for the Rant and the 710 is a bit on the pricey side, as is the case with the Alley Kat.

I'm not really sure what to think about serrated spines which makes me slightly reluctant towards the Hattori fighter and the Roughneck, however I'm open to persuasion by anyone with positive experience of these knives.

Then there's the Spydercos. The thought of reverse grip edge in with a lockback knife makes me slightly nervous, although my Native's lock has never disengaged without me wanting that to happen. The temperance seems to be a good all round blade, but I still not sure whether I find the looks of it ugly or really cool. :D

Sorry for my ranting above, but I appreciate any and all suggestions you guys can give me. Thanks in advance.
 
You're looking at the Pikal style grip - excellent choice. From my limited experience I'd recommend the Endura (don't worry about an unlock), the Temperance (works surprising well with this grip), and the Camillus boot (a real sleeper). These are all the right size for this style. The SOG Desert Dagger works (most daggers will) but is a bit large for pikal use. I've not played with the BM705 but from the looks should work just fine.
 
I 2nd the reccomendation for the disciple, although its the only one of the 3 shivworks knives I don't own, simply because it didnt fit exactly what i was looking for as much as the clinch pick did. On the other hand, the clinch pick itself although meant to be wielded in a foward hammer grip, actually works just as well with Pikal, as it is sharp on the "top" but not the bottom of the knife. Both are excellent knives, and I plan to get a disciple sometime soon
 
Loki, I love the endura in general, and agree it feels good in pakal. But I feel the possibility of an unlock with a lockback (and the endura in particular) is very real, and not to be ignored. My finger falls right into the Boye detent when I hold the endura this way. I can feel the lockup loosen when I tighten my fingers. Do you not get the same problem? I'd avoid any lockback that I hadn't personally held and confirmed that there isn't an unlock problem.

Vagabond, I agree with STeven that Shivworks Disciple should be on your list -- in fact, top of your list -- unless you've left it off for a reason.

Some other points:
Benchmade Axis is my current favorite folder for pakal. It feels awesome in pakal, it feels awesome in forward grip, the blade is awesome, the lock is awesome. You can get it with a tool steel blade. It just plain kicks butt.

Size-wise, if we take something like the SRK and the like, most of the advocates of pakal on the internet prefer to keep a pakal blade under 4". You'll find some of us (Ray Floro lineage, primarily) who like pakal for blades a bit larger than that, but I think 6" is way on the outside in any case.

Also, some of the blades you picked are double-edged, right? I assume you can carry those okay where you are. Most double-edged daggers have the classic reverse-hourglass shape, which works well in any grip. My only problem with these types of knives is that they have to sacrifice edge geometry (grind always starts in the middle of the blade).

I think the Temperance is a monster in pakal -- incredibly good blade geometry, mated with a good handle, though the handle is a bit thick for this use. I know some people don't like it for pakal, but I don't understand why.

Joe
 
I frankly hadn't thought of the Disciple before you mentioned it, but for one thing it's a bit pricey and besides I don't like sheepfoot points, be they modified or not. As for the clinch pick, well, it doesn't look like the handle lends itself well to the grip I had in mind, kind of like my AFCK.

And yes, the only problem as far as knives are concerned where I live are autos, gravity knives and balisongs.

I'm a practitioner of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, and long blades in reverse grip is no problem for me since a lot of our training with knives involves trapping limbs with an edge-in grip and holding the back of the blade with the free hand to add leverage for locking and breaking (although daggers for obvious reasons aren't very appropriate for these techniques).

I still don't know exactly what to make of the Temperance, it could be argued that the fact that it looks like a kitchen knife is a good thing, but I don't know if I really care for the looks of it...
 
The Disciple isn't very expensive when you consider that they are finished, handled, and sheathed all by hand. Think of it as a custom, minus the profiling and grind. ;)
 
The Benchmade 805 (and/or BM 806) is EXCELLENT in a reverse grip. Lately, I've been "playing" with mine, and when I draw it, and snap it open to a reverse grip, it feels TOTALLY natural...And man, it REALLY snaps open QUICK and positive!.:).
 
glockman99 said:
The Benchmade 805 (and/or BM 806) is EXCELLENT in a reverse grip. Lately, I've been "playing" with mine, and when I draw it, and snap it open to a reverse grip, it feels TOTALLY natural...And man, it REALLY snaps open QUICK and positive!.:).
Click to expand...

I have to disagree. The finger choil on my 806 is, as far as I'm concerned, a big no-no for edge in. It puts the point of the blade at an awkward angle, almost as if you were to hold a kerambit with the point towards yourself.

I have a Steve Ryan Plan B which has the same problem: love, love, love the knife but it doesn't feel at all secure to hold with the edge in.
 
I don't like the 806 for reverse grip edge-in either. On a thrust, the point ends up to the right of where I expected it to be. Maybe this is the awkward angle you speak of.


Joe
 
Vagabond said:
I have to disagree. The finger choil on my 806 is, as far as I'm concerned, a big no-no for edge in. It puts the point of the blade at an awkward angle, almost as if you were to hold a kerambit with the point towards yourself...
Click to expand...
Actually, I was talking more of an "edge-out" grip...With the point-down...Maybe that isn't called "reverse grip?".

:confused:
 
The term "pikal" refers to a reverse grip with the edge in. Try it with your AFCK and you'll see that it isn't a comfortable grip.

However, in a simple reverse grip (edge out) the AFCK feels great! Of couse, the point does go a bit left, but with such a thin point, I doubt it matters.
 
Hey Joe:

Actually, the Endura does work for me. My grip lets me kinda staddle the exposed portion of the lock. The recessed lock on the new models also help. But I do understand your hesitation. I guess one should play with the Endura before using planing on using as a Pikal blade.
 
Steven Roos said:
The term "pikal" refers to a reverse grip with the edge in. Try it with your AFCK and you'll see that it isn't a comfortable grip.

However, in a simple reverse grip (edge out) the AFCK feels great! Of couse, the point does go a bit left, but with such a thin point, I doubt it matters.
Click to expand...
My bad :(...I didn't "notice" that Vagabond mentioned "edge-in" when I responded to his question.
But you ARE right...The correct "pikal grip" sucks with the 805/806, but when done MY way, (with the edge-out, tip-down), it is a very secure grip; At-least to me it is.
 
howdy,

I have the 710 and it feels pretty good in pakal, but it is a little large for me. My 705 feels a bit small for me :( but I think it's just the handle shape.

I just bought (and really like) the Benchmade 530.

Their new 780 looks interesting as well.

The spyderco delica (and I'm guessing an endura) DO feel good in tip up - edge in, but I don't think that's what you're asking.

I have the Disciple, it is awesome.
 
Being able to apply Pikal/pakal/sabong grip is a something I look for when checking out knives, especially folders. IMO, as far as folders go, nothing really comes close to a balisong especially in regards to lock strength. It's easy to argue that blade deployment speed is somewhat compromised, but from experience I must say that even unopened, a bali is a fine impact device, like an olisi-palad or kobutan. A couple of solid strikes with either the lock or pivot end can provide you the opportunity to deploy if necessary. I like a 4-5" blade which gives me 5-6" handles which are plenty long enough to for such applications.

For conventional folders, my personal favorites are my Cuda Maxx, MT SOCOM, and MOD Hornet.

For fixed blades, I'm really partial to REKAT Hobbit Warriors, and double edged "boot" knives like a Boker A-F dagger or Gerber Guardian Backup. Single edged, my Spyderco FP Bowie, REKAT Hobbit's Fang, and Steve Isbell Tanto fit the bill and are part of my EDC rotation.

If you're interested, check out Peter Jensen of Jensen Elite Blades who has several knives designed with Pikal/pakal/sabong concepts in mind. Excellent craftmanship and affordably priced. He is currently offering the Floro knife, a recent design commisioned by Guro Ray Floro, in two sizes. Both accompanied with Micarta trainers.

Hope this helps. :)
D13
 
Somebody please tell me how you can find the Fred Perrin Street Bowie and the MOD Hornet comfortable with reverse grip edge in??? :confused:

The Floro knife looked promising, but then I discovered it has a chisel grind... :barf:

Anyway, I'd appreciate if we could get back to discussing the alternatives I mentioned earlier.
 
I'll second the BM 710 for edge in. It feels great in virtually any grip and you can reverse the clip to open it in reverse grip (though not edge in). As you are into clipping/trapping/locking, the recurve blade plus serrations might aid in holding the limb. Great knife, slim and light for its size.
 
Vagabond said:
Somebody please tell me how you can find the Fred Perrin Street Bowie and the MOD Hornet comfortable with reverse grip edge in??? :confused:

The Floro knife looked promising, but then I discovered it has a chisel grind... :barf:

Anyway, I'd appreciate if we could get back to discussing the alternatives I mentioned earlier.
Click to expand...

SURE . . . The FP has just enough handle before the choil for me to get excellent purchase with all four fingers and my thumb capping the pommel. It's not uncomfortable at all. As for the MOD Hornet, it's pretty much the same. Of course, hands differ so what's comfortable isn't universal and a matter of what suits you.

Peter does do custom work so if you'd rather a different grind, I'm sure he can do it. IMO, a chisel grind is fine for a dedicated fighter as the Floro knife is designed as are simpler steel blades (AUS-8, 10 series Hi carbon, etc). Yes, perhaps there are concerns about edge retention and brittleness, but were talking about a dedicated fighter and not general purpose knife. Many of my martial blades, which include forged, antique wakis, talibons, and ginungting are chisel grinds and perform flawlessly during tameshigiri and other cutting drills. But once again, it's all a matter of what suits you.

Let's get back to your alternatives. . .get the 710 and the Camillus.

My apology for posting my suggestions as you seem to sound unappreciative. But of course, it's all a matter of what suits you.

D13
 
Oh no, it wasn't my intention to sound unappreciative, but I've handled the FP and it just doesn't feel secure, I kind of get the feeling that I'll lose my grip from a hard stab because of the finger choil. The Hornet has the same problem as the Gunting and the Polkowski Companion, IMHO - the handle is uneven on the palm side when held in reverse with the edge towards you, and that makes for a type of grip that I just don't like.

If I can get my hands on a custom Floro with a hollow or flat grind, that would be great! I gather it's somewhat like the Dave Beck/Tom Brown Tracker, only it had best be lighter and better balanced so as to be adequate as a fighter.

For the time being though, it seems like the 710 will be my next purchase, given the fact that it seems to be highly thought of among you guys. Does anyone know where I can get the trainer for that model at a reasonable price, apart from 1SKS? And just before we close the issue completely, does anyone have opinions regarding knives with serrated spines used in pakal?
I've never handled a Hobbit, but from the looks of it, it seems much more useful for slashing and hooking than stabbing when held in reverse grip...
 
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