Best dies for Hydraulic press forging?

Knifemaker87

Knifemaker87

Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
1,073
Hey everybody!
i am building a hydraulic press with a 20 ton air-over hydraulic bottle jack. i am making the press so that it can have interchangeable dies. I was planning on starting out with two sets, a "flat" set and a drawing set. The flat set till be just that, flat rectangular stock with the edged broken. Then a drawing set where the edges will have a significant radius to them.

My main use for the press will be breaking down stock and making damascus, and need advise with the dies. are those okay? should i make different ones? are the "flat" dies unnecessary?

What material should i make the dies from? I have some 1018 stock, but was i think i can get some 4130. Help me please

thanks!
~Chris
 
At some point you'll probably want some squaring dies as well. Pretty simple to make using angle iron but crucial for doing Ws patterns or just squaring up billets so you can get nice even twists
 
When I went to Nick Wheeler's he had flat dies right behind his drawing dies, Then after he would draw out a piece he would stick a piece of keystock the thickness he wanted the billet on the very back of the flat dies and it acted as a stop to keep a uniform thickness. Bruce Bump has been doing some WIP threads and he uses some squaring dies on his when doing damascus. I am gathering parts and those are the dies I have on top the list.
 
Whatever ever design of dies you decide to use, don't waste your money on anything other than A36 hot roll. Because of the intensity, and duration of exposure to heat involved with a press, no matter what steel you use, it will deform over time. I wasted a bunch of time and money trying D2, M2, and a couple of other materials for dies.....they all lasted about as long as pieces of A36. All I do now is use the pieces of A36 that are dimensionally what I need, and then tack weld them in a couple of places to the die plates.....whenever they deform beyond use, I grind off the tack welds, and replace them with new pieces of A36.
 
Ed, Was H-13 ever on your list? I was figuring to make some dies from it as it should theoretically hold up to high temps better.

-d
 
I tried it (H13) and its no better than anything else. It was frustrating to me before I realized what was going on.....no matter what type of steel you use (unless it's some very exotic/costly alloy that's made for this type of specific application) the exposure to the high temps, pressure, and long duration of a forging press application is simply going to "temper out" the material, and it will deform. Some of the material will last a BIT longer than others, but from what I've experienced its not nearly enough of a difference to justify the expense of something like H13 or D2.

Even though I generally have to replace my flat dies (the most used in my press) about every 2-3 months, its still far more economical to use A36. I never tried more than one set of dies made from the other materials, simply because I couldn't afford to. There might be something out there that will hold up to long term use as forging press dies...but I haven't found it, and don't know what it could be. (I doubt I could afford it, even if I did find it.) :)
 
Chris,
I would be interested in seeing how that setup works out. It has been my observations and calculations that the bottle jacks I have found have two problems. They move way too slow, and the tonnage rating is vastly over rated. When lifting a car for repair, or jacking up a house, they work fine, when trying to press hot steel in the 5-30 second window you have per heat...not so good.The ram may move the necessary couple of inches fairly fast, but the build up of pressure will take a while to achieve max tonnage.
If it does not come with retracting springs, you will need to add them, so you can cycle the ram.

I'm not saying it won't work, and I know there have been others who have tried it, but for doing any production work like stock reduction and damascus....well, I'll wait and see the results.
 
bladsmth said:
Chris,
I would be interested in seeing how that setup works out. It has been my observations and calculations that the bottle jacks I have found have two problems. They move way too slow, and the tonnage rating is vastly over rated. When lifting a car for repair, or jacking up a house, they work fine, when trying to press hot steel in the 5-30 second window you have per heat...not so good.The ram may move the necessary couple of inches fairly fast, but the build up of pressure will take a while to achieve max tonnage.
If it does not come with retracting springs, you will need to add them, so you can cycle the ram.

I'm not saying it won't work, and I know there have been others who have tried it, but for doing any production work like stock reduction and damascus....well, I'll wait and see the results.
Click to expand...

hey
thanks for the feedback. i was aware of the problems before i got started. however, i need something more than just my hand hammer, and i dont have the money right now for anything better. I am going to be adding springs to the existing ones. at this point it is my best option. if it is marginal, it is better than what i have, and if it is great that it will exceed all my expectations.
thanks!
~Chris
 
Knifemaker87 said:
hey
thanks for the feedback. i was aware of the problems before i got started. however, i need something more than just my hand hammer, and i dont have the money right now for anything better. I am going to be adding springs to the existing ones. at this point it is my best option. if it is marginal, it is better than what i have, and if it is great that it will exceed all my expectations.
thanks!
~Chris
Click to expand...


How much will this press cost? I'm thinking you might be able to make a small Ron Kinyon style air hammer if you can find a cheap air compressor that's big enough.
 
Phillip Patton said:
How much will this press cost? I'm thinking you might be able to make a small Ron Kinyon style air hammer if you can find a cheap air compressor that's big enough.
Click to expand...

i currently have $70 invested in the jack, and i need an air compressor. another limitation i have right now is size. noise is a slightly smaller concern. can i get some more info on the hammer?
thanks
~Chris
 
Knifemaker87 said:
i currently have $70 invested in the jack, and i need an air compressor. another limitation i have right now is size. noise is a slightly smaller concern. can i get some more info on the hammer?
thanks
~Chris
Click to expand...

That Kinyon is a much bigger project than the one you are working on now.

Someone sells plans Kinyon, or the ABS?
As I understand it the "plans" not as illustrative as the word "plans" implies.

Examples:

http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=8879

http://www.artistblacksmith.com/airhammerforsale.htm

I wold love to see plans, parts list if anyone has them.
 
12345678910 said:
That Kinyon is a much bigger project than the one you are working on now.

Someone sells plans Kinyon, or the ABS?
As I understand it the "plans" not as illustrative as the word "plans" implies.

Examples:

http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=8879

http://www.artistblacksmith.com/airhammerforsale.htm

I wold love to see plans, parts list if anyone has them.
Click to expand...


True, but he'll end up with a more versatile machine, IMO. But if noise is a problem, then a hammer probably isn't a good idea.

Plans can be bought. I forget where I got mine....
 
Phillip Patton said:
True, but he'll end up with a more versatile machine, IMO.

Plans can be bought. I forget where I got mine....
Click to expand...

Absolutely true, but it seems that he is not ready for that just yet...and is going to learn that the hard way.

If noise is a concern then I agree a press is the way to go..

Phillip
-can you lay your hands on the plans you have now?
...and what do you think your build cost
what would you do differently
 
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Chris,
You will need a compressor that delivers a good flow at 100PSI. It will make some noise, but less than a hammer will.
I wish you well, but you may be building little more than a big weld setting press ( flat dies). The drawing and such probably won't work well.
 
I personally have built one (actually 2, helped another bladesmith construct one) of these little 20 ton air over hydraulic presses.

They actually work half-way decently and might supprise you. Granted a nice proper hydraulic press will make it look like a toy, but you can still draw out some good sized stock with it and it is DEFINATLY much better than doing it all by hand. Its biggest draw back is the speed of course, but that just means it takes a few more heats to get the job done, but it will do it. I've drawn out pretty decent sized billets with it (4X1X6 or so) and worked big stock (1.5" round, etc) and it will do it, just takes more heats compared to a proper press. BUT it is a HUGE improvement over hand and hammer, thats for sure. I have about $100 invested in the press itself ($70 or so on the jack, and the rest in the steel from the scrap yard and air lines), so overall its a pretty cheap little guy to build. You'll need a pretty decent air supply as mentioned. If you can find a nice big air compressor on craigslist for a good price that will be your best bet, if not, HF often sells a little 2HP 8 gallon unit on sale for $80. One by itself doesnt really cut it as it runs out of air too quickly, but if you get two and hook them in tandom, they do alright, and for $160 together they are cheaper and will out-perform some of the slightly larger but more expensive units.

The main reason I went with this press is a space issue and a budget issue. I Barely have enough space in my tiny shop setup for what I currently have in there, let alone a big hydraulic press, and at the time I built this, the couple grand I would have needed to build a nice press wasn't in the budget. I could probably wing the expense now, but still don't have the space (or time really to build one), so it will have to wait until I get a different shop going down the road.

So I guess in a simple summary, if you are on a very tight budget and/or don't have a lot of space (don't have 220v power hook up for a big motor, etc) and need something to allow you to get some more done with big stock and billets, or even tide you over until you can get something better, you can't go wrong with a little press like this. However, if you have the funds/space/power hook ups/etc. to go for a proper hydraulic press and/or power hammer of some sort, go that route.

Feel free to email me if you have any questions about the little press. Performance, construction, etc. That goes for anyone interested. I have a couple pictures of my press on my website, and have done some youtube videos with it in action (though I was only running it on a smaller compressor at the time, so it wasn't performing the best).

Graham
 
Wow!
this info is GREAT!! i am going to try and get some H-13 steel from aldo, and then i can get started. i am painting my motorcycle right now, so i am kinda busy, but then i am going to focus on this. I was looking to spend about $150 on a large air compressor, so hopefully i can get something bigger than 8 gallons.
here is the press as i have laid it out so far. teh die holders are actually sitting sideways. (i pulled those out of a dumpster)

NewSV342.jpg


thanks for all the help!
~Chris
 
oh, i did want to ask... what about stainless? there is alot of 15-5 17-4 and the like floating around... is that an option?
 
I hope this works for you. Personally I see something like this as just pushing you further away ($$$) from buying/building something more substantial. I saw a set up like this, and as far as its comparison to my Carlisle press.... An analogy would be comparing a little Harbor Freight 1X30 belt sander to my 3hp KMG. It would do just enough work to piss you off. ;)

You make killer stuff Chris, my recommendation would be to save up and get a more ballsy press with the sale of a few pieces. :)



As far as dies go, I am 100% with Ed on this... In this type of application, mild steel always works just as well as anything for me. Something else to consider, is the ease of working the material. You most likely will want to change the dies around once you get situated with a press, and mild steel is a lot easier to work with than anything more exotic.

Either way, best of luck Chris! :)
 
In the world of dies, I have to agree with Mr. Caffery. Keep them cheap. Simple A36 or other mild steel (1018) will make dies that will work fine. My first set of dies for this little press came from some big A2 blocks, which I found at the scrap yard. After a lot of use, they have deformed some, and have needed a little dressing. The mild steel dies I have made have held up about as well, and are a lot easier to work with when dressing them or making a new set, etc. If you can get tool steels at a great price, fine go that route, but otherwise I don't see the need in sinking that much money into them when mild will do just fine.

As far as Nick's suggestion, I somewhat agree, but also disagree. A nice press is the way to go, no question about that, if you can wing it in terms of price, space, etc. However in terms about the $$ setting you back, this press is cheap enough that I don't think it will make too big of a dent in your budget. And when it comes time for a big press, I guarentee you'll be able to sell this little guy to someone who's getting into some forging, for at least what you paid to do it and get your money back and probably a little extra. Yes there is an air compressor expense too, but thats useful for other things in the shop, and also re-saleable if necessary. I certainly don't recommend this little press as a do-all-end all as its far from it, but its something that most people can get into right away and boost production and make work a bit easier and faster until they can get into something better. I'd actually say that you'd probably be able to afford a big press more quickly though selling pieces, just in the forging time savings by having a little press like this.
 
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