Recommendation? Best Motorized Ball Valve / Solenoid For Auto Propane Forge Shutoff?

[J. Keeton]

I was wondering if anyone has had experience or has know-how when it comes to these normally closed valves to act as an ESD (Emergency Shut Down) valves... which brand / type to get and what are the pitfalls...

I bring this up since a viewer of mine berated me in my direct messages about not using an explosion proof solenoid on my forge. I think there is some merit to this argument.

This is the cheap solenoid that I'm currently using... I took a measurement today when running the forge with a temp gun and got a reading of around 150F on the body of the solenoid. This is partly due to poor placement and I'll be moving it; but with the ambient being around 90-100 here in Texas during the summer, I can see the possibility of high temps again in the future.



In addition to the higher temps and lack of explosion proof rating; I've read that these valves aren't designed to say energized for extended periods of time (~6 hours)... which honestly I don't see me doing, but just wanted to point out.

I was thinking about potentially replacing it with one of these motorized ball valves since a.) it takes minimal energy to keep open (still normally closed) and b.) full ID when open.



As far as reasonably priced "explosion proof" solenoids; the best I could find was this ASCO valve. Although I'm still trying to validate that this part number is the exposion proof version... may be about 30-50 bucks more for that rating.




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Anyone have any tips on this? I very much want to have my system be as safe as possible.

Thanks,
James

 

[Bühlmann]

I wouldn’t cave to anonymous Safety Sallies on YT. Some clowns have nothing better to do but to hurl turds at productive & helpful folks like yourself. You already know that, though.

If you see valid resolution to a significant risk in your forge, then go ahead. If such a risk exists at all, I’d suggest your forge design is flawed. I bet 99+% of those using propane forges at home do not use such a device. Maybe I’m wrong, but this is actually the first I’ve heard of using one.

Sorry for not actually answering your question, just wanted to encourage you to consider telling those that “berate” for your exceptional content go pound sand, unless you agree with them and/or solicit the critiques.

YMMV, of course. Keep up the good work!

 

[Ken H>]

Those motorized valves are interesting. I had no idea you purchase them that cheap - this one item # B06Y16BDFG is only$32 shipped.

 

[J. Keeton]

I wouldn’t cave to anonymous Safety Sallies on YT. Some clowns have nothing better to do but to hurl turds at productive & helpful folks like yourself. You already know that, though.

If you see valid resolution to a significant risk in your forge, then go ahead. If such a risk exists at all, I’d suggest your forge design is flawed. I bet 99+% of those using propane forges at home do not use such a device. Maybe I’m wrong, but this is actually the first I’ve heard of using one.

Sorry for not actually answering your question, just wanted to encourage you to consider telling those that “berate” for your exceptional content go pound sand, unless you agree with them and/or solicit the critiques.

YMMV, of course. Keep up the good work!

I’m with you… they can be annoying. But I try to put my ego aside and see if they have a point or not.

In this case; I think the biggest benefit was making me take the time to look things over. At the least this will result in some re-routing on my end and while I’m there give me the chance to fix some things that have been bothering me.

I figured while I have it all apart… this would be the best time to replace the ESD… if it’s an issue or if there is a more accepted, better option.

Cheers sir! Thanks for your thoughts

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Those cheap shut-off valves work fine, but do run hot. They are not really good for long spells in the open position.
I use a ASCO redhat valve. As long as it is rated for LNG/propane/natural gas you are fine. 0-30PSI is more than enough.
It is the folks who buy a cheap liquid control valve who run a risk of a fire or failure.

Note to Ken - these are not motorized. They are solenoid control. Not a big difference but important. You can get motorized valves, but they cost a LOT more.

 

[J. Keeton]

Those cheap shut-off valves work fine, but do run hot. They are not really good for long spells in the open position.
I use a ASCO redhat valve. As long as it is rated for LNG/propane/natural gas you are fine. 0-30PSI is more than enough.
It is the folks who buy a cheap liquid control valve who run a risk of a fire or failure.

Note to Ken - these are not motorized. They are solenoid control. Not a big difference but important. You can get motorized valves, but they cost a LOT more.

Thanks for the info as always sir! The middle valve I put in the OP was a motorized valve not a solenoid. I can’t figure out if it’s rated for fuel gas though. It is not mentioned on the product page. The valve itself is 304 stainless which is nice; I’ll ask it as a question to the seller to get some clarity.

 

[J. Keeton]

This lists the ball seat as PTFE which I think would be fine to use with natural gas or propane.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Edited to remove erroneous comment.

While I recommend a solenoid safety valve, I agree that it is 99% unneeded. I have never had a power failure while running the forge. If I did, I would still go over and shut off the propane tank before leaving the forge.

I have not checked for myself but have heard that the 12VDC safety valves run cooler. They are used on mobile homes to shut off the gas when the power fails. They stay on full time except when the power fails. They are also used on forklifts and propane powered vehicles to shut off the gas when the key is turned off. Again, they are on all the time while the vehicle is running. I have one of the cheap $15 propane solenoids from China out in the shop. This week I'll hook it up to the 12VDC power supply and leave it on for a day to see how warm it gets. I'll let you know what I find.

 

[J. Keeton]

Sorry, I missed the motorized valve. I read the info and it would not work as a safety valve for power failure. It just uses a motor to do what your hand would do - open or close the valve. It does not revert to closed upon loss of power.

While I recommend a solenoid safety valve, I agree that it is 99% unneeded. I have never had a power failure while running the forge. If I did, I would still go over and shut off the propane tank before leaving the forge.

I have not checked for myself but have heard that the 12VDC safety valves run cooler. They are used on mobile homes to shut off the gas when the power fails. They stay on full time except when the power fails. They are also used on forklifts and propane powered vehicles to shut off the gas when the key is turned off. Again, they are on all the time while the vehicle is running. I have one of the cheap $15 propane solenoids from China out in the shop. This week I'll hook it up to the 12VDC power supply and leave it on for a day to see how warm it gets. I'll let you know what I find.

I agree... It's not the most crucial thing to have.


The Motorized valve from above's description:

The U.S. Solid 1/4'' motorized ball valve in stainless steel with automatic return is a blessing to many a home tinkerer. The body and stem on this valve are made of stainless steel. The valve will actuate when 85V to 265V AC power are brought to it. In this automatic return valve, the valve is Normally Closed. When energized, it will open in 3-5 seconds. Afterwards, limit switches will keep the energy output to a negligible amount. If power gets cut out, the valve will again return to a closed position. Most solenoid valves are fully energized whilst open, which can lead to overheating. This valve takes in such little energy once fully opened, that it will NEVER overheat.
Auto return valves are an important option. If being used to control your water system, it is important that it shuts off automatically in case of a power outage. This can prevent leaks and flooding. Additionally, this valve comes with an IP rating of 65. This ingress protection level means the casing will keep the electronics free of any dust, and is safe even when being sprayed with water from any direction.

 

[A.McPherson]

While I recommend a solenoid safety valve, I agree that it is 99% unneeded. I have never had a power failure while running the forge. If I did, I would still go over and shut off the propane tank before leaving the forge.

When I made my vertical forge I followed Stacy's recommendation about the N.C. valve and it certainly has paid off.

Unlike him, I live in an area where we have power outs nearly monthly, sometimes daily depending on the season.

While I can't say for sure that it's saved me from accidents, it's certainly let me know to turn off the gas cause the power went off...

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I missed that part. Thanks. I edited my comment.

I have not seen a return-to-closed valve with the hold circuitry that cheap. I guess China has brought things down a lot. The last one like that I looked at was a long time ago and cost several hundred dollars. I will have to look and see what proportional gate valves in the 2" size have dropped to. These would be great for controlling and tuning a blower remotely. They were crazy expensive last time I looked. I ordered one and will check it out.

As moderator, I am supposed to tell you that we are not supposed to post links with prices or to sales pages.

 

[Ken H>]

Lots of good info posted since I made my post yesterday. Yep, those valves are slow acting. I saw "Motorized Ball Valve" in the description and didn't really look further, other than the cheap price. I'd like to know more about how they work, what holds the valve open with such low current. Just be more of a setup so the spring holds valve closed, and also holds valve open, with current required to "trip" the valve over the spring holding.

Stacy, you kindly reminded us not to post "links with prices", I don't see any actual links in this thread. I see screen grabs, but those are not links that lead back to the site. I did post an item number which allows a search to find the item, but thought that was ok? As a guest on the site I am not fussing at all, just do wish to abide by the rules.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

All I needed to do was copy the link in the post and order a valve from Amazon. The source and prices are all in the photos. Not a big deal, just doing my Moderator duty. Personally, I don't see a problem with info on things that no BF seller carries.

The funny thing was that I was going to post how someone with little electronics could make a hold circuit to keep a valve open using a lithium back-up battery.
Getting one pre-built for less than $50 is a really great deal.
They work in one of two ways.
1) Spring loaded. These have a spring that will close the valve if power is disrupted. The hold cuircuit uses just enough power to Lock the valve open against the spring. Loose power and the spring closes the valve.
2) Reserve power. These circuits have a large capacitor that retains enough power to close the valve if power is lost. The circuit only needs enough power once the valve is opened to maintain the charge on the capacitor. I am sure there are circuits with back-up batteries in the circuit, too. These are probably used on large valves that requite more torque.

 

[J. Keeton]

Cool deal, I think I may pick one up to try as well to try out!

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On the topic of links. I thought I was skirting the rules by only posting screen shots . I'm not sure how we can disucss topics like this with specific items without doing something similar... I contemplated taking a screen shot of just the item... then saying something like "I found this valve online, here is the part number and it cost around $XX.XX - and it has these qualities..." but then I thought that's silly... lol

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Anyways, thanks as always for being a sounding board yall.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Ok, I was sitting in church and had an epiphany ... not that type, but one about this topic.

I realized my long-standing advice about using a shut off solenoid valve at the tank had a big flaw. The valve goes to the shut mode when power is interrupted during a power failure - GOOD. BUT, when power returns later the valve will re-energize automatically unless you have shut off the MAIN switch, which I usually recommend putting by the exit door. If you leave the drill press on when the power fails it may come back on after the power returns, but besides a bit of wasted electricity, nothing harmful will happen. Many grinders run off a VFD, which usually resets to zero with a power loss. BUT, what if you leave the LP tank/forge on without shutting off the MAIN switch - the valve will open when the power comes back on and if you didn't turn off the propane gas valve gas will flow. This could lead to a catastrophic explosion.
Using the motorized valve will not solve that problem. Yes, it does not draw much power in the ON mode, and YES it will automatically shut down if power fails ... but it will open again if power is restored unless you turn off the switch that energizes it. I looked closely at the specs and images and there is no manual reset. Reset would be automatic when powered, which means it will open the valve when power returns.

Now, is this a big deal - probably not. I think most everyone will shut off the power to tools and machines and leave the shop in a power failure. But this is the stuff that keeps safety engineers up at night.

My solution would be a cheap NVR switch in the power to the valve. These are No Voltage Return devices that reset to ZERO when the power is off because they lose the latching. Other names are Magnetic switch or magnetic contactor. You have to push the ON again after a power interruption. They cost about $15-20. This is your new MAIN switch. The bonus is you can wire it to a quad box and plug several devices into at the forge. This could shut off the gas, blower, PID, etc. when the power fails. The one shown has a flip-down cover that works as an emergency STOP switch.
Don't know why I didn't think of this before, as I use them in my shop to turn On/OFF equipment like grinders, drill presses, etc. They fit a standard wall switch box.
Here is the simple device that could save your shop:

Search eBay or Amazon for - Universal Replacement Switch 250V 15A NVR Switch Emergency Stop Switch (one shown was on Ebay). Make sure the one you get says NVR, magnetic switch, or says it shuts off power in a power failure.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

"On the topic of links. I thought I was skirting the rules by only posting screen shots . I'm not sure how we can disucss topics like this with specific items without doing something similar... I contemplated taking a screen shot of just the item... then saying something like "I found this valve online, here is the part number and it cost around $XX.XX - and it has these qualities..." but then I thought that's silly... lol"

To post a photo from a link you usually click on the image in the add and it opens as a photo, click "Copy Image" and post that image. If it will be hard to fine without more info copy the tile info as I did in the previous post.

 

[J. Keeton]

I like where your head is at with the switch.

Personally I'm thinking that if I were to ever have a situation where the power went out while my forge was running and I wasn't there.... Say I went to grab a glass of water from the house (round trip 3 min).... Then the first thing I'd do when I noticed the power went out would be to go turn off the propane on the forge and manually cut the power to the blower.

If it cycled on and off quickly then the blower would also kick back on and the forge would still be hot enough to re-ignite.

 

[J. Keeton]

That being said... I ordered one of these to wire both my blower and motorized valve to:

POWERTEC 71354 Magnetic Switch 120V | EZ Surface Mount Box, 1/2 HP​

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EDIT: I think I may actually wire this up to an outlet box mounted on the side of my forge cart so that I can plug the blower and motorized valve into the outlet... this way if one of those ever goes out, I have less re-wring to do.

 

[Ken H>]

Like ya'll I'd never thought about an ESD for the forge/propane tank. I'm right there, even if stepped away for water and the power went out the first think I'd do is walk over the the propane tank to shut the valve.

Still, this thread has been good discussion about safety and helps me keep safety in the forefront of my mind. Good discussion from all parties.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Yes, place it on the forge cart or near the forge on the wall and plug al the forge devices into it. One switch shuts off everything.

Not only are these devices good for propane systems, but they are also really good for running equipment. Wire one to a quad or duplex box and plug in any tools (bandsaw, drill press, table saw, portaband, etc.). Turn the tool on and then operate it from the NVR switch. The switch now is an emergency locking STOP button as well as a NVR. I didn't mention before that the red STOP button locks down and will not allow the power to be restored until you twist and release it. It can be used as a sort of lock-out button to prevent kids or other foolish people from turning things on without permission.

I also ordered several more for some tools in the shop that I would loke to be able to stop fast and easily with an elbow or hip. There are far too many scenarios I can conjure up where one hand is busy holding a wounded other hand.

For the folks who do their own wiring - I am pretty sure you could take a deep quad box and put one NVR switch beside a duplex outlet. Wire te switch to the outlet. This would allow the switch to be next to the plug it controls. Another idea is to make a 25-foot 14-gauge extension cord with the quad box and the switch/duplex at one end. This would allow using it to control rolling equipment or for working out on a patio or deck.