Best way to do a convex grind?

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Oct 11, 2014
Messages
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I’m fairly new at making knives. I wanted to try doing full height convex grinds and have a rotary platen on the way. I have done some googling and looked through the forums and the appropriate technique is still somewhat unclear to me. From what I can tell, I should initially grind a primary bevel, and then switch to the rotary platen to create the convex profile. If this is the case, what is the optimal height of primary bevel and edge thickness before going to the rotary platen? I also read somewhere that creating multiple facets by changing the grind angle while using the flat platen before doing the convex grind is perhaps better. When using the rotary platen to create the convex profile, what angle relative to the belt should I be holding the blade at? It would seem if I hold it completely flat it’s gonna grind into the spine. Also, what is optimal grit progression? On a separate note I can’t figure out how to add information to my profile so if anyone can tell me where to go on the site, I would appreciate it.

Thanks
 
With convex grinding thick edge are easy to achieve. Concentrate grinding on the shoulders and only go to apex at the end.

I have been grinding a 10 dps to scandi then I start convexing.

I use calipers to make sure the thickness behind a micro bevel is what I want as once again it is easy to convex a thick edge.
 
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One can edit their profile by clicking on their name at the upper right.

Look up posts by T Taz and his use of a variety of platen semi-flexible materials for convexing his blades.

Good luck with the rotary platen. I have one of the very first that Frink made and never did figure out how to convex grind with it very well. Whatever you do, I’d flat grind it first and only convex the lower third. Find info on convexing by Ed Caffrey if you can. He does nice convex stuff that’s nice and thin still. Too many thick convex blades out there.

Good luck!
 
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Unless you are using a laser edge goniometer, you have no way of measuring the actual angle at the apex.

The best way to convex grind is to grind normal to a flat bevel, sharpen the knife at the desired angle for the end user than blend the shoulder on the belt but use a soft backing on the platen like leather or graphite pad.

You can use a slack belt area but a soft backed platen I find gives more control.

I would still recommend touching the edge up after processing but it's nothing a loaded strop with Gunny Juice diamond emulsion on leather can't handle.
 
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Ok, I must admit I roughly grind a 10 dps scandi pre convexing using an angle cube setting up my grinding guide, totally not exact.

I do about 98 percent of my convexing on a platten.
 
It really takes some trial and error on how you want to do it and what works for you I know that’s a sucky answer and I didn’t like it either.

I’ve experimented with very soft backing behind a belt and leather and I like leather more something stiffer is nicer IMO than too soft. I do 95% of the grinding flat in the platen before switching to something softer like leather I then start with the blade flat on the softer platen and focus pressure near the edge in order to convex.

As for grit progression I leave the flat platen at 120 grit and move to the soft platen and start at 120 grit and move up from there. Depending on the degree of convexness you want would depend how much meat you leave on the blade to be worked out and if you would want to start at 60 or 80 grit.

My convex is on the flatter side now than when I started.
 
One method of convex grinding is to flat-grind the edge at decreasing angles and then blend the "facets" on the rotary platen. This is the method used to create an "Apple Seed" grind on a Japanese sword.

A leather or graphite cloth backed flat platen also works well for the blending. many folks just convex the bevels on such a platen as one step.
 
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I usually start with a flat grind on a glass platen, leaving around .040" or so at the edge. I bring the grind up the blade where I want it, but only go to 80 or 120 grit on the belts, mostly to make sure the 36 grit scratches are fully out.

I have a piece of S2-32 hard felt 1/4" thick double sides taped onto a metal platen, as well as a piece of F3 felt (a bit softer than S2-32, also 1/4" thick) double sided taped to another metal platen. I also have some 1/8" thick leather on another metal platen. Each of these has it's place for convex grinds.

For heavier chopper knives, I use the F3 more since it will deflect farther with less pressure than the S2-32 felt, leave a more rounded convex and thicker behind the edge for heavier tasks. For kitchen knives and thin scalpely blades, I use the S2-32 mostly. The S2-32 gives a flatter convex further up the blade. The leather is to help keep the plunge cuts more crisp and clean up any deeper scratches since it barely has any give to it. It's pretty close to the S2-32, but will keep the corners sharper in the plunge. The corners of the soft platens bend and get smooshed down quicker than the face does because the pressure is on a smaller area.

I run the belts slower because running them fast will burn the felt or leather. I often start with the edge up when it's still thick, but as it gets thinner, I switch to edge down for safety or run the belt in reverse and use the edge up. I plan on leaving some width at the spine, so if I get a full convex that hits the spine as well, I can trim the spine back down to the full thickness I want, or buy thicker stock to begin with. With the soft platens, as you push into them, you will feel the felt/leather give a bit. You can actually establish a groove in the felt or leather that will help keep the knife there and consistent, too. The belts will be less effective with the give to the backer, so using fresh, sharp belts is key! Trying to use a worn belt on a soft felt platen will not do much on a hardened blade! It's also very easy to put too much pressure on one side or the other of the platen, too, so you really need to feel your pressure on the blade to get a nice grind without ripples in it. Keep checking down the blade to make sure you aren't putting edge to spine dips/ripples into the blade. Too much pressure can cause the belt splice to put a "worm trail" (squiggly ugly grind line) on the side of the blade mostly parallel to the edge.

With the felt, it's all about the feel of the blade and felt. I can feel more where I am grinding and know to push more towards the edge to thin it out, towards the middle or towards the spine to change how the convexing is. I am working on a kitchen knife currently from 1/8" thick stock and the customer wants the spine at 1/8" and a high convex. First grind I did, I could feel the convex shoulder about halfway up the blade parallel to the edge. It cut some stuff OK, but not onions. Went back to the felt platens, applied pressure more at the midpoint on the blade height wise to push to convex towards the spine more, especially on the front half of the blade and then pushed the area just behind the edge into the platen more to thin out the area behind the edge. Made a huge difference in how it cuts!

With soft platens, its hard to keep crisp grind lines and plunges. Doing a convex hunter/EDC type blade for a full height grind isn't too bad except for the plunges. Kitchen knives need to perform well in a variety of foods, so the grind is more important there. I grind, test, grind, test, grind, test until I am happy with how they perform. With convex grinds, many tend to go partway up the blade, but this will leave the tip portion of the blade thicker, which I found, so I have to work on pushing the convex up the blade towards the spine as I get closer to the tip, or grind in a distal taper in the blade itself to help out with it before grinding the bevels.

Gyuto started: Flat grinds
OEPQx0r.jpg

CcSDS7o.jpg


Blade is oversized (see sharpie lines), but convex being put in where the flat bevels were, bringing them closer to the spine:
1vfXe6i.jpg


Choil shot after first grind:
S62T5no.jpg


Choil after 2nd grind:
wn6HgZA.jpg


These are both using the S2-32 felt platen. I can still get a strong convexing with the firmer platen!

Not much visible change, but I thinned out the area just behind the edge a bit and worked the grind up as I got closer to the tip, so the choil itself didn't see a big change! The shoulder of the convex is much closer to spine on the blade, especially towards the tip. Leaving the blade oversized lets me trim the spine down and still have full thickness, especially since the barstock is oversized already due to mill scale. If you use precision ground stock or stock right on dimensions, you may need to play a bit more to keep the spine the thickness you want.

For contrast, here is a 3/32" Magnacut gyuto choil:
9QnhuSb.jpg


Same S2-32 felt platen, 3/32" magnacut and really pushing hard into the felt and bringing the grind way up. It also has a S grind (36" radius platen hollow grind), but it's not visible from the choil since I start it forward of the heel so there is a fatter heel vertical edge to round out for comfort. This blade also has more of a distal taper as well and I didn't worry about keeping the spine full width because I wanted a laser.

With a rotary platen, I would start with the flat grind (or faceted flat grind using slightly different angles and then regrinding starting with 60 or 80 grit belts to blend those on the rotary. With rotary platen or felt, you will see the scratches that you missed; keep going until all of the scratches are getting removed evenly along the grind. If you see deep scratches in an area of the convex, that means that area isn't really fully ground yet to be even with the rest of the blade! The rotary platen uses a rubber belt to give tension behind the belt to vary how much give there is, sometimes with tension adjustments or space between the rubber wheels. The belt can give especially on the edges, so even pressure is important. The rotary platen helps keep plunges crisper than the soft platens with practice. The rubber belt can cup as well, giving a 2" groove in the blade, so that is one thing to consider!

I saw someone else used a set up with 2 rubber contact wheels offset vertically to mimic a rotary platen, but with no rubber belt behind the main sanding belt.

I can try to post more info later tonight!
 
Obviously many ways to convex, not one way is better than another just what works for the maker and their clientele.

There is a pretty well know maker that sells his knives for 3x what I sell mine for. He does a great job but he likes a thicker apple seed edged convex. I have reground about a dozen of his knives now for knife friends of mine. These knives were all around 0.030-0.040 inches behind the edge so while being super durable their geometry is lacking.

So how ever you grind your convex remember to watch edge thickness and keep it in the range that you find acceptable as it is easy to make a thick convex edge.
 
Yeah, choppers may be fatter behind the edge, I like mine nice and slicey and thin, especially in kitchen knives! I found if I go too thin with the flat grinding, when I convex the blade, I lose blade width/height, so I stop early and have plenty of meat to convex where I want to and get the edge geometry I want. Convexed edges let you go thinner with more support behind them, so unless someone wants a very thick edge profile, I try to go fairly thin, even with chopper and test to make sure they will hold up.
 
I also flat grind to pretty thin and then use a felt backed platen.
Concerning plunge lines. I finish them on the flat platen and stay clear of that area when on the soft platen. The transition from that small flat to the convex is unnoticable. I also stay away from the area closest to the spine when using the soft platen. I don't think it looks good when the blade is rounded towards the spine, which can happen easily.

AA2u6b3.jpeg
 
I usually start with a flat grind on a glass platen, leaving around .040" or so at the edge. I bring the grind up the blade where I want it, but only go to 80 or 120 grit on the belts, mostly to make sure the 36 grit scratches are fully out.

I have a piece of S2-32 hard felt 1/4" thick double sides taped onto a metal platen, as well as a piece of F3 felt (a bit softer than S2-32, also 1/4" thick) double sided taped to another metal platen. I also have some 1/8" thick leather on another metal platen. Each of these has it's place for convex grinds.

For heavier chopper knives, I use the F3 more since it will deflect farther with less pressure than the S2-32 felt, leave a more rounded convex and thicker behind the edge for heavier tasks. For kitchen knives and thin scalpely blades, I use the S2-32 mostly. The S2-32 gives a flatter convex further up the blade. The leather is to help keep the plunge cuts more crisp and clean up any deeper scratches since it barely has any give to it. It's pretty close to the S2-32, but will keep the corners sharper in the plunge. The corners of the soft platens bend and get smooshed down quicker than the face does because the pressure is on a smaller area.

I run the belts slower because running them fast will burn the felt or leather. I often start with the edge up when it's still thick, but as it gets thinner, I switch to edge down for safety or run the belt in reverse and use the edge up. I plan on leaving some width at the spine, so if I get a full convex that hits the spine as well, I can trim the spine back down to the full thickness I want, or buy thicker stock to begin with. With the soft platens, as you push into them, you will feel the felt/leather give a bit. You can actually establish a groove in the felt or leather that will help keep the knife there and consistent, too. The belts will be less effective with the give to the backer, so using fresh, sharp belts is key! Trying to use a worn belt on a soft felt platen will not do much on a hardened blade! It's also very easy to put too much pressure on one side or the other of the platen, too, so you really need to feel your pressure on the blade to get a nice grind without ripples in it. Keep checking down the blade to make sure you aren't putting edge to spine dips/ripples into the blade. Too much pressure can cause the belt splice to put a "worm trail" (squiggly ugly grind line) on the side of the blade mostly parallel to the edge.

With the felt, it's all about the feel of the blade and felt. I can feel more where I am grinding and know to push more towards the edge to thin it out, towards the middle or towards the spine to change how the convexing is. I am working on a kitchen knife currently from 1/8" thick stock and the customer wants the spine at 1/8" and a high convex. First grind I did, I could feel the convex shoulder about halfway up the blade parallel to the edge. It cut some stuff OK, but not onions. Went back to the felt platens, applied pressure more at the midpoint on the blade height wise to push to convex towards the spine more, especially on the front half of the blade and then pushed the area just behind the edge into the platen more to thin out the area behind the edge. Made a huge difference in how it cuts!

With soft platens, its hard to keep crisp grind lines and plunges. Doing a convex hunter/EDC type blade for a full height grind isn't too bad except for the plunges. Kitchen knives need to perform well in a variety of foods, so the grind is more important there. I grind, test, grind, test, grind, test until I am happy with how they perform. With convex grinds, many tend to go partway up the blade, but this will leave the tip portion of the blade thicker, which I found, so I have to work on pushing the convex up the blade towards the spine as I get closer to the tip, or grind in a distal taper in the blade itself to help out with it before grinding the bevels.

Gyuto started: Flat grinds
OEPQx0r.jpg

CcSDS7o.jpg


Blade is oversized (see sharpie lines), but convex being put in where the flat bevels were, bringing them closer to the spine:
1vfXe6i.jpg


Choil shot after first grind:
S62T5no.jpg


Choil after 2nd grind:
wn6HgZA.jpg


These are both using the S2-32 felt platen. I can still get a strong convexing with the firmer platen!

Not much visible change, but I thinned out the area just behind the edge a bit and worked the grind up as I got closer to the tip, so the choil itself didn't see a big change! The shoulder of the convex is much closer to spine on the blade, especially towards the tip. Leaving the blade oversized lets me trim the spine down and still have full thickness, especially since the barstock is oversized already due to mill scale. If you use precision ground stock or stock right on dimensions, you may need to play a bit more to keep the spine the thickness you want.

For contrast, here is a 3/32" Magnacut gyuto choil:
9QnhuSb.jpg


Same S2-32 felt platen, 3/32" magnacut and really pushing hard into the felt and bringing the grind way up. It also has a S grind (36" radius platen hollow grind), but it's not visible from the choil since I start it forward of the heel so there is a fatter heel vertical edge to round out for comfort. This blade also has more of a distal taper as well and I didn't worry about keeping the spine full width because I wanted a laser.

With a rotary platen, I would start with the flat grind (or faceted flat grind using slightly different angles and then regrinding starting with 60 or 80 grit belts to blend those on the rotary. With rotary platen or felt, you will see the scratches that you missed; keep going until all of the scratches are getting removed evenly along the grind. If you see deep scratches in an area of the convex, that means that area isn't really fully ground yet to be even with the rest of the blade! The rotary platen uses a rubber belt to give tension behind the belt to vary how much give there is, sometimes with tension adjustments or space between the rubber wheels. The belt can give especially on the edges, so even pressure is important. The rotary platen helps keep plunges crisper than the soft platens with practice. The rubber belt can cup as well, giving a 2" groove in the blade, so that is one thing to consider!

I saw someone else used a set up with 2 rubber contact wheels offset vertically to mimic a rotary platen, but with no rubber belt behind the main sanding belt.

I can try to post more info later
 
With the rotary platen, they can generate a lot of heat, so be aware of that! You can also vary the amount of give in a belt (regular belt sander, no rotary or soft platen) by how far away you are from a wheel. IE if you have a 10" contact wheel (or a platen with idler wheels above and below the platen), and you grind on the "slack belt" portion just past the wheel, the belt will have some give to it to do a convex grind. If you go farther away from the wheel, the belt tension is less and will have more convexing and more likely to hit the spine. I used to use that method to thin the area behind the edge and not worry about hitting the spine side of the knife. It can also be used to blend faceted grinds before going to a rotary or soft platen.

Good tips with the plunges and spine Scaniaman! Those are the hardest areas to get nice and clean! With kitchen knives, the way I grind them, the plunges are a non issue (either none or back in the handle area) and the spine I round off and polish anyway for comfort, which is why most of my convex knives are kitchen knives! LOL. I've been doing more flat grinds on regular blades and not convex grinding the blade itself lately, but want to get back to more convex ground blades.

One area I struggle with soft platens is the tip area. I always leave it longer and wider as my tips get washed out, rounded and really thin with a soft/rotary platen so I can go back afterwards and get a nice, pointy, strong tip in place.

One nice thing about a rotary or semi soft platen is that you can get a really nice belt finish! The splice bump is less of an issue in thinner finishing belts, so I often go up to a 16 micron belt or 1200 compact grain belt on my convex blades.
 
I use a heavy heat treated steel platen with a shallow concave area that measures around 2.5 inches tall and around .020-.024 deep. I grind them in with the mill, head tilted to about 3 1/2 degrees with a 4 1/2 inch grinding stone, I think, it’s been a while.

I use a work rest for consistency. The platen is about 3/4 inches thick to reduce vibration. I grind to 120 grit and then add leather for the finer grits. The heavy platen allows for good plunge lines, easy peasy.

Hoss
 
With the rotary platen, they can generate a lot of heat, so be aware of that! You can also vary the amount of give in a belt (regular belt sander, no rotary or soft platen) by how far away you are from a wheel. IE if you have a 10" contact wheel (or a platen with idler wheels above and below the platen), and you grind on the "slack belt" portion just past the wheel, the belt will have some give to it to do a convex grind. If you go farther away from the wheel, the belt tension is less and will have more convexing and more likely to hit the spine. I used to use that method to thin the area behind the edge and not worry about hitting the spine side of the knife. It can also be used to blend faceted grinds before going to a rotary or soft platen.

Good tips with the plunges and spine Scaniaman! Those are the hardest areas to get nice and clean! With kitchen knives, the way I grind them, the plunges are a non issue (either none or back in the handle area) and the spine I round off and polish anyway for comfort, which is why most of my convex knives are kitchen knives! LOL. I've been doing more flat grinds on regular blades and not convex grinding the blade itself lately, but want to get back to more convex ground blades.

One area I struggle with soft platens is the tip area. I always leave it longer and wider as my tips get washed out, rounded and really thin with a soft/rotary platen so I can go back afterwards and get a nice, pointy, strong tip in place.

One nice thing about a rotary or semi soft platen is that you can get a really nice belt finish! The splice bump is less of an issue in thinner finishing belts, so I often go up to a 16 micron belt or 1200 compact grain belt on my convex blades.
With the rotary platen, they can generate a lot of heat, so be aware of that! You can also vary the amount of give in a belt (regular belt sander, no rotary or soft platen) by how far away you are from a wheel. IE if you have a 10" contact wheel (or a platen with idler wheels above and below the platen), and you grind on the "slack belt" portion just past the wheel, the belt will have some give to it to do a convex grind. If you go farther away from the wheel, the belt tension is less and will have more convexing and more likely to hit the spine. I used to use that method to thin the area behind the edge and not worry about hitting the spine side of the knife. It can also be used to blend faceted grinds before going to a rotary or soft platen.

Good tips with the plunges and spine Scaniaman! Those are the hardest areas to get nice and clean! With kitchen knives, the way I grind them, the plunges are a non issue (either none or back in the handle area) and the spine I round off and polish anyway for comfort, which is why most of my convex knives are kitchen knives! LOL. I've been doing more flat grinds on regular blades and not convex grinding the blade itself lately, but want to get back to more convex ground blades.

One area I struggle with soft platens is the tip area. I always leave it longer and wider as my tips get washed out, rounded and really thin with a soft/rotary platen so I can go back afterwards and get a nice, pointy, strong tip in place.

One nice thing about a rotary or semi soft platen is that you can get a really nice belt finish! The splice bump is less of an issue in thinner finishing belts, so I often go up to a 16 micron belt or 1200 compact grain belt on my convex blades.
 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gkmM-hDhN9VRNJHCEqhsoQU5B8J3Ptjj/view?usp=sharing
With the rotary platen, they can generate a lot of heat, so be aware of that! You can also vary the amount of give in a belt (regular belt sander, no rotary or soft platen) by how far away you are from a wheel. IE if you have a 10" contact wheel (or a platen with idler wheels above and below the platen), and you grind on the "slack belt" portion just past the wheel, the belt will have some give to it to do a convex grind. If you go farther away from the wheel, the belt tension is less and will have more convexing and more likely to hit the spine. I used to use that method to thin the area behind the edge and not worry about hitting the spine side of the knife. It can also be used to blend faceted grinds before going to a rotary or soft platen.

Good tips with the plunges and spine Scaniaman! Those are the hardest areas to get nice and clean! With kitchen knives, the way I grind them, the plunges are a non issue (either none or back in the handle area) and the spine I round off and polish anyway for comfort, which is why most of my convex knives are kitchen knives! LOL. I've been doing more flat grinds on regular blades and not convex grinding the blade itself lately, but want to get back to more convex ground blades.

One area I struggle with soft platens is the tip area. I always leave it longer and wider as my tips get washed out, rounded and really thin with a soft/rotary platen so I can go back afterwards and get a nice, pointy, strong tip in place.

One nice thing about a rotary or semi soft platen is that you can get a really nice belt finish! The splice bump is less of an issue in thinner finishing belts, so I often go up to a 16 micron belt or 1200 compact grain belt on my convex blades.
 
I also flat grind to pretty thin and then use a felt backed platen.
Concerning plunge lines. I finish them on the flat platen and stay clear of that area when on the soft platen. The transition from that small flat to the convex is unnoticable. I also stay away from the area closest to the spine when using the soft platen. I don't think it looks good when the blade is rounded towards the spine, which can happen easily.

AA2u6b3.jpeg

One of the Best plunges I've seen! You you did videos, or tutorials
 
I use a heavy heat treated steel platen with a shallow concave area that measures around 2.5 inches tall and around .020-.024 deep. I grind them in with the mill, head tilted to about 3 1/2 degrees with a 4 1/2 inch grinding stone, I think, it’s been a while.

I use a work rest for consistency. The platen is about 3/4 inches thick to reduce vibration. I grind to 120 grit and then add leather for the finer grits. The heavy platen allows for good plunge lines, easy peasy.

Hoss
Hoss,
If you are not too busy can you show an image of that set up please, when/if convenient.
 
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