Big Game bullets

cause the barrett is a BMG (big money gun)
also, it looks military.
a white man with a military-looking weapon in africa is DEAD MEAT.
 
Hokay, lots of stuff. (This'll teach me not to open a gun thread here for several days!)

I fired a .375 T/C Encore a month ago. I was expecting some recoil- firing an African game cartrige from a handgun- but I was so distracted by the ungodly blast I didn't notice if it "kicked" or not. :rolleyes: The .375 is "the" African cartridge, but is marginal on dangerous game, and some nations dictate at least a .376, or other metric designed to be sure you "use enough gun".

I've fired the CZ 550 in .458 WM. They are going to make a .458 Lott, so this would probably be just about the most economical route to purchase a rifle that can reasonably take any land animal (the Lott is more powerful, but can also fire .458 rounds in a pinch). Oh- I was firing 500 grain solids in the .458, and even though you knew you were touching off a rocket, it actually hurt less than a Winchester 1300 loaded with max turkey loads.

Various makers offer 300 grain .45-70 HPs. I shot a small buck with a GA Arms 300 grainer from a Marlin 1895G, a few years ago. He hit the ground instantly, but because it's still a fairly low-velocity round, there was a minimum of meat damaged, quite unlike a magnum 7mm or .30 caliber with lightweight bullets.
PMC offers a 350 grain round that is economical, yet loaded hotter than anything except for ultra-expensive loads from Garrett and Buffalo Bore. I'd want to test it for accuraccy, reliability, and penetration, but then, I think I'd
be perfectly comfortable using it against Browns in Alaska. (I was actually thinking about this at work tonight, interestingly enough. :))

Danny, this is a neat rifle, and I have lusted after it, as well. It IS NOT the dangerous game rifle you need for Africa. The premium ammo you would want
to use will wreck this gun. Check out Garrett and BB's site- they both give fairly detailed information about which firearms are safe to use their products in. If you don't feel satisfied with what they say, and don't want to take our word for it, email Randy Garrett. He'll let you know, quickly. :)

For hunting large DG, you want a deeply penetrating round. This means heavy for caliber. A "smaller" caliber that gave you a more deeply penetrating
round- say, a 9.3x64mm with 286 grain bullet (.305 SD)- would be immensely better than the "larger" .45-70 loaded with something like a 350 grain SP (.238 SD).

Hope this helps.

Cliff, if you ever decide to sell that Siamese Mauser, please, PLEASE let me know first. I've been wanting one since oh, '97 or so.

John
 
I just sent an email, so we'll get a report, hopefully, on the strength and acceptable loads for the Russian double pretty soon.
 
I agree with John about the ballistic requirements for hunting the big 4 in Africa, of which the Cape Buffalo is considered the most dangerous. There is so much bone and gristle to go through that one needs a hard, solid bullet with plenty of energy behind it. The two guys I know that hunt Africa on a regular basis swear by the .450 Ackley. One is a 3rd generation Rhodesian and was employed as a professional hunter until the current political situation forced is emmigration some years ago. I still remember his choice of words regarding how the .450 Ackley would "really flatten" a buffalo.
 
Dan,

I briefly toyed with the idea of having a custom modern rifle made up in something like .45-110- but the truth is, even loaded stoutly, you'd end up with .458 Winchester Magnum or (if lucky) .458 Lott performance. You can buy those off the shelf. If you somehow ended up with a more powerful rifle, perhaps along on the lines of the .460 Weatherby, I don't think I'd want to fire it.

John
 
Danny,

I was tired last night, and so, probably left out some information. Double rifles are not as strong as magazine rifles (much like top-break revolvers are not as strong as other types). This means that the good 'ole doubles typically use a very large round that has lower pressure than modern rounds.

This relates to one of the potential problems with using the .458. The original ballistic information is not what one usually gets from a .458 WM. There is more
than one reason for this, but part of the reason, is that the cartridge was so popular, that it began to be chambered in double rifles. This necessitated loading down the cartridge. The .458 Lott delivers all the performance promised
from the original .458, and probably a little more- performance is the same as the .450 Ackley, but without any potential pressure problems. ;)

http://www.african-hunter.com/458_watts___458_lott.htm

John, future African hunter
 
Hello!

I have been following this thread. And enjoying it.

I grew up reading the greats. Capstick,Ruark,Bell,Taylor, Cooper, O'Connor, and Keith.

Love them all.

And I have hunted...and done a lot of shooting. Sometimes one has nothing to do with the other.

Common sense and practical experience will most often be the deciding factor in filling the freezer with meat. Or in the case of "Dangerous Game who comes home from the safari. Rarely will an adequate caliber with an appropriate cartidge be the reason in for a failure in the field.

Elmer Keith and Jeff Coooper have both said words to the effect, Use as much gun as you can shoot well, and then practice like hell.

The only reason I say this is because you are discussing the 45-70 doubles and various loads . The 45-70 is being used in Africa, with the appropriate hot loads to kill buff and other game. But I would bet that professional hunters would recommend you come with a bolt action magazine fed rifle in a more accepted caliber, in or above 416.

Bullet perfomance...now we are talking about the projectile here...is a huge part of cartidge success. A great caliber with a crappy bullet is worth exactly diddly.

NOt trying to sound like an expert...just throwing in my pesos.

ONe thing more before I trundle off to bed. DO NOT ever share or express thoughts about guns being hidden away somewhere for any reason. Keep it to yourself. Danny commented that his mom had a place to keep all the nasty stuff. IN todays world that could be considered grounds for a search. Mom don't need the feds at her door wanting the key to the gun stash. Right?

NOt trying to piss anybody off fellas. You guys are alright by me.

Shane
 
I'm a wimp.

Had a Remington Safari grade in 458, to which I had a local smith put on a muzzle brake. Shot it 4 times at the range. Once I shot 3 rounds, the other times 2 shots did me in.

Cheapest gun to get your fill of shooting with I've ever had. Bought one box of 510 (?) grain soft points after I got it and sold it with 11 rounds left in the box.

It's said the body cannot remember how agonizing something was after the pain's over. I'd have to be really desperate to drop the hammer on another round of full-charge 458. Did I mention that it hurt?
 
Shane is probably right.

Did I mention that my brother is the editor of an american newspaper?
 
Dan,

No one seems to know much about the EAA double rifle in 45-70. I certainly can't make any recommendations, since I haven't seen one or talked to anyone who has shot one. A trip to Africa might be some heavy lifting for an untried gun. We have a number of customers shooting the Kodiak Mk IV double rifle in 45-70, and they seem to have excellent results especially with heavy bullets. At this point there just seems to be a lack of credible information about the EAA double rifle.

Cordially, Randy Garrett
 
I always had a lot of respect for Randy Garrett. He's added tungsten penetrators to his line... :)


A. KODIAK MK IV DOUBLE RIFLE The brainchild of Caldwell Hart Colt, son of Samuel Colt, the rare Colt double rifle was manufactured from 1879 to 1885. Patterned after the original, this Pedersoli replica has semi-regulated barrels with a folding leaf express rear sight. The two-piece European walnut stock is hand checkered with an oil finish. Locks, breech, and hammers are color case hardened. Double triggers. Bbl. Length: 24"; O.A.L.: 39 3/4"; Weight: 10 lbs., 3 oz.; Caliber: .45-70. Mod. No. KDR445 Retail Price $3125.00 YOUR COST ONLY! $2,799.00

If you have the BB or Garrett uber rounds at close range, I'm sure you'll be fine on Cape Buff and smaller, but I really doubt the Baikal will shoot them for long. If you have to get more gun to shoot them in- unless you're willing to go for a Marlin or Winchester lever gun- I'd go for a nice .416 or .458 Lott.


John
 
Spectre's up to snuff on modern stuff- I've steadily drifted away from the Industry. (been many years since I managed a gun store) He may know better what is available in Africa. But I'll say again, a cartridge like the Lott may be hard to find. If you fire 458 in it it will work but you'll lose at least 100 fps in a cartridge already criticized for being not enough. Which brings me to another point- these big ones are stoppers. What are you stopping?

If, and I mean IF, you can get a double in 375 H and H, you can hunt things here at respectable ranges. (though doubles are not known for long range accuracy)
I'm assuming that is what Spectre was talking about when he said 375; the H and H, and not the Winchester round. The idea of firing a H and H from an Encore leaves me cold.

I am fascinated by the Lott, but it is not going to fly as well as a 416. You might consider a Rigby or Remington 416. You can stop dangerous game and still take a shot at an antelope at 300 plus yards.

BTW, Spectre, I think what you are saying is that the 458 was loaded down by the manufacturers because it had too high a pressure under a hot African sun. This was dangerous in any rifle, but particularly doubles. That makes sense.

This is a neat thread. Most of us will never get to the "dark continent' but we enjoy imagining.

Actually, after Spectre's post on the Kodiak (that's available from Cabellas, isn't it?) I might like one of those. I really just want Ruger to make a Double we can load the snot out of.


munk
 
I thought many of the double rifles and other African cartridges like the .416 Rigby where loaded to low pressure to avoid the case sticking in the breech when you ejected to reload. I believe that is a criticizm of newer cartridges like the .416 Rem.
 
Most safari guides want you to bring a mauser type action, something with a claw extractor, when you go after dangerous game. There is still danger with that though. I had read in one of the safari stories, maybe in Herne's book, about a high pressure round that stuck in a mauser type action. The claw tore the rim off the case and something had to be ran down the barrel and hammered to get the spent case out. Not something you want to have happen when you are being charged by a buff.
 
munk,

I was holding onto the Encore pretty firmly, I can tell you! My ears rang through hearing protection. I suppose the muzzle brake must've been effective, because I don't remember any recoil, just noise, ungodly, awful, punishing noise. Oh, yeah, and a huge gout of dirt from the berm. :)

I've planned for some years on having a .416 Rigby built on a 1917 action. For the money, though, a CZ'll be hard to beat. Sure, if you fired .458 WM through a Lott chamber, you'll lose a little more velocity- but you'll still be more powerful than the hottest .45-70 loads...and your guide will probably have some .458 on hand, if you somehow run out of .458 Lott ammo.

cliff,

I am serious, that if you ever decided to part with it, I would be thankful if you called me.

John
 
I studied all these rounds pretty extensively. Not the modern rounds, but the older stuff. I read all of capsticks books and the old ones he had resurrected.
Such as "Big Game hunting in East Africa" etc...

I want a double rifle. (its a romantic adventurer thing)
I cant spend big bucks.
I may never actually go to Africa, but I want to have a double rifle that would be ok if I do.
I emailed EAA just like you suggested, so maybe we will all have a good answer today or tomorrow.
Even if they say it cant handle extra hot loads, I think I will still buy it.
I am a pretty good shot and I bet there are some 45-70 loads that are not too hot that would do just fine.
 
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