Blade Length

Rick1955 · Dec 29, 2000

A question for all, especially law enforcement officers and attorneys:

Many laws relating to knives specify certain stated blade lengths as being legal or illegal. Sometimes the wording is vague or confusing but usually laws list the maximum length of a knife blade for it to be legal and any length over that is illegal to carry.
This gives great latitude to the police and the courts to determine the definition of the legal length of a knife blade.

But how is blade length measured? I have only seen laws from two jurisdictions that specify how knife blades are to be measured. Technically, blade length is measured along the longest straight line from the tip of the point to the farthest end of the tang, (which is usually inside the handle).

To cover myself, I consider the total length of the blade as I have described above - including that part of the blade in the handle.

I have seen all kinds of ways that police officers measure blades - including using parts of their hand!

So I would like to hear from all of you that have knowledge of this or even an opinion.

Thanks.

Jim March · Dec 30, 2000

At least where a folder is concerned, the most common type of measurement is "stabbing penetration depth". Anything else would give folders an automatic penalty over fixed blades.

I know of at least one fixed blade where the cutting edge is actually longer than the stabbing penetration depth, my own "Outsider". How you'd measure that, I've no idea, although I suspect a shift over to "longest cutting edge" would be logical.

Measuring tangs would be stupid. In the case of many fixed blades, you'd have no clue how long it is short of an X-Ray. That's not to say some courts MIGHT be that dumb, but basic reasoned arguments should get that under control.

Jim

cerulean · Dec 30, 2000

Legally, how blade length is measured depends on what the statutes say. If the stautes don't tell you how to measure the blade length, then case law in your state determines how it's measured. You said, "I have only seen laws from two jurisdictions that specify how knife blades are to be measured." Would you mind telling me where? That's very interesting.

The knife industry usually measures blade length from the tip of the blade to the point where it enters the handle. Many, but not all, dictionary definitons define "blade" as "the cutting part of an instrument". Since you can only cut with the edge, this definition means that blade length is the same as edge length.

I know of three states where blade length is defined in case law. In California, blade length is defined as the length of the cutting edge (see - In re Rosalio S. , 35 Cal.App.4th 775 [No. D021701. Fourth Dist., Div. One. Jun 1, 1995.]).

In Colorado, blade length on a folder is defined as the lenght from the tip of the blade to the pivot joint (Which is idiotic, as Jim March pointed out. A knife is made of two parts: handle and blade. The above method measures part of the handle as the blade.) Sorry, I don't have the reference here.

But now for the good news! I found a case in Texas that covers this exact topic. Lucky you! They measure the blade length from the tip to the top portion of the handle. Notice that they misuse the term "tang" in calling it the unsharpened part of the blade. (see - ALEJANDRO PEREZ, JR., Appellant v. THE STATE OF TEXAS, Appellee No. 05-98-01288-CR COURT OF APPEALS OF TEXAS, FIFTH DISTRICT, DALLAS July 23, 1999)

I'm not allowed to reproduce the entire case here. I'd just send it to you, Rick, but you don't have an email listed. To view it, go to www.lexisone.com . Register for free and search the Free Case Law section.

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Cerulean

"We cut things to create things" - J.K.M.

[This message has been edited by cerulean (edited 12-30-2000).]

zerozappa · Dec 30, 2000

Many, but not all, dictionary definitons define "blade" as "the cutting part of an instrument"

Here's an interesting twist - what about unusual blade shapes?

If the above definition were used, would we have to run a string along the sharpened edge, and then straighten it out next to a ruler to measure the blade length, or would the blade length be measured as the greatest distance between any two points on the sharpened edge?

For example, if we took a 6" blade, and magically reshaped the knife to look like a boomerang that had at most a 4" distance between any two points on the sharpened edge.. firstly would this tool still be considered a knife, and if so, would the length be 4", or 6"???

-ZZ

Rick1955 · Dec 30, 2000

I really don't remember which laws I read that actually specified how a knife blade was to be measured. Seems like one was MN. Not sure though.

I know that one of them said something along the lines of "from the tip of the point of the blade down a straight line on the center of the side of the blade to the point where the blade enters the handle".

It would seen stupid to me to measure a knife blade for legal purposes along the cutting edge as this would in almost all cases be longer than the whole main length of blade exposed outside of the handle.

The penetrating length would be the length of the whole exposed blade. Technically, from a structural standpoint, a knife blade includes everything from the tip of the point to the far end of the tang - even if the tang is in the handle.

Fixed bladed knives present a problem if the blade goes completely the length of the handle - the total blade length.

Folding knives present a problem - the "exposed" blade length can actually be different for different open positions from the handle. Depending on the handle, a blade can be measured longer if opened at 90 degrees rather than fully open.

I guess my point it on this is that unless the law specifically states how a knife blade is to be measures - we are completely at the mercy of the police and the courts. Case law is a good example of that.

I would still like to hear from other of you on this topic.

Thanks.

Rick1955 · Dec 30, 2000

That is just the problem. Most laws do not state how a knife blade is to be measured.

And case law leaves us at the mercy of the courts - "legal" findings that often have no basis in fact but what a person in that case finds as reasonable. Case law can be good and can be bad.

I once saw a police officer take a knife from a teenager and measure it by holding the bolster nearest the blade between his thumb and forefinger, with the blade open fully, and then rotated the knife till the blade hit the web of his hand between the thumb and forefinger. He declared the knife illegal and closed it and dropped it into his pocket and told the kid he was confiscating it and he was lucky he didn't go to jail - he was gonna let him go this time. The cop got a knife and the kid got ripped. The knife was legal in that jurisdiction. Not a very scientific or legal way to measure a knife if you ask me.

Some people think that knives are just inherently dangerous weapons - which makes no sense whatever to me. The knife is one of the oldest and most useful tools we have.

cerulean · Dec 31, 2000

The penetrating length would be the length of the whole exposed blade.

Here, I think we can get into why blade length laws are so stupid in the first place.

Why do we have laws about blade length? I suppose that most law makers are concerned about the "penetrating power" of certain knives; they assume that a particular blade length will be long enough to puncture vital organs within the body. When they measure blade length, they want to measure stabbing penetration depth.

I would ask you you though: What are the top three most dangerous edged weapons in history? My answer would be: The spear, axe, and arrow. Of course, all three of these weapons have a short "blade length", no matter how you measure it.

The arrow and spear are both penetrating weapons. In the case of these objects, they penetrate well past the blade. An arrow, for instance, can have a blade length under 1", yet it can pass easily through your entire body. Similarly, if you stab someone with a knife, it will not stop penetrating at the blade/handle juncture unless there's a substantial guard or your hand present to stop it.

An axe isn't a penetrating weapon, but it's still very fearsome. You've got to find it amusing that states where a pocket knife with a 4" blade is illegal allow the carry of axes with 3" blades.

***********

There are a lot of possible questions about blade length. What about an ice pick? It doesn't have an edge. What's the blade length of an ice pick and could you even consider it to have a blade? A blade is a cutting instrument and an ice pick doesn't even cut.

What do you do with a choil, the part of the blade under the edge and above the handle that you can hold for detailed work? If a knife, by definition, must be comprised of a handle and a blade, then what is the choil? If the tang is part of the blade, then that means that the blade is inside of the handle. How does that make sense? Are the handle and the blade the same thing?

What do you do with one-piece fixed blades, like these?

(pic from www.agrussell.com )

Is there a choil, a tang, or a handle on this model? What's the blade length?

Zerozappa said:

Here's an interesting twist - what about unusual blade shapes?

If the above definition were used, would we have to run a string along the sharpened edge, and then straighten it out next to a ruler to measure the blade length, or would the blade length be measured as the greatest distance between any two points on the sharpened edge?

Good point. Similarly, what about serrated edges? Serrations on a knife can add 10% to the actual overall edge length.

I think the answer to the above questions is that there are no easy answers. Even among knowledgeable knife afficionados, you're not going to find a consensus as to what a "blade" really is exactly, not to mention how it should be measured.

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Cerulean

"We cut things to create things" - J.K.M.

[This message has been edited by cerulean (edited 12-31-2000).]

Rick1955 · Jan 14, 2001

I realize I may be wearing this out, but I would really like to hear from more of you about the issue of Blade length. Particularly from LEOS, attorneys, and any of you who may be able to relate situations that you have been in related to blade length and the law.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Rick1955:
A question for all, especially law enforcement officers and attorneys:

Many laws relating to knives specify certain stated blade lengths as being legal or illegal. Sometimes the wording is vague or confusing but usually laws list the maximum length of a knife blade for it to be legal and any length over that is illegal to carry.
This gives great latitude to the police and the courts to determine the definition of the legal length of a knife blade.

But how is blade length measured? I have only seen laws from two jurisdictions that specify how knife blades are to be measured. Technically, blade length is measured along the longest straight line from the tip of the point to the farthest end of the tang, (which is usually inside the handle).

To cover myself, I consider the total length of the blade as I have described above - including that part of the blade in the handle.

I have seen all kinds of ways that police officers measure blades - including using parts of their hand!

So I would like to hear from all of you that have knowledge of this or even an opinion.

Thanks.

Reload · Jan 14, 2001

Let me begin by stating that attorneys and members of law enforcement often interpret the law incorrectly. That is why our judicial system has judges and juries to make final determinations. Laws are really nothing more than guidelines that are always open to scrutiny. O.J. Simpsons case is the best example of this. Texas does not have statues detailing the exact method of determining the length of a knife blade. There appears to be case law that could give you an idea but a Judge doesnt necessarily have to accept case laws. I carry a Spyderco that is factory specified as having a 3.75 inch blade. If a prosecutor wants to challenge that in a court of law he would definitely lose. But I would be out $4000 in attorneys fees defending myself. If you really are interested in staying out of trouble just use common sense.

Rick1955 · Jan 27, 2001

Interesting question: What is blade length?

To me a knife blade is the entire one single piece of metal that includes the cutting edge, back, tang, choil, kick, etc. The real question is what is the definition of blade length under the law.

Generally that would be the exposed blade on a fixed blade knife or on a folding or pocketknife when a blade is open.

But there are many ways to measure that length. Is it in a straight line from the point of the tip along the center of the side of the blade to the handle, along the back of the blade, along the cutting edge, or the cutting edge alone. Few laws specifiy how to the blade of a knife is to be measured making most knife laws vague and giving the authorites too much leeway for interpretation. A knife is a finite thing. This should not be difficult. It is not right that laws be so vague as to allow the authorites to interpret most anything as being illegal.

Knife laws, should in my opinion be well written, specific, and should include intent.

What do you do with a choil, the part of the blade under the edge and above the handle that you can hold for detailed work? If a knife, by definition, must be comprised of a handle and a blade, then what is the choil? If the tang is part of the blade, then that means that the blade is inside of the handle. How does that make sense? Are the handle and the blade the same thing?

What do you do with one-piece fixed blades, like these?

(pic from www.agrussell.com )

Is there a choil, a tang, or a handle on this model? What's the blade length?

Zerozappa said:

Here's an interesting twist - what about unusual blade shapes?

If the above definition were used, would we have to run a string along the sharpened edge, and then straighten it out next to a ruler to measure the blade length, or would the blade length be measured as the greatest distance between any two points on the sharpened edge?

Good point. Similarly, what about serrated edges? Serrations on a knife can add 10% to the actual overall edge length.

I think the answer to the above questions is that there are no easy answers. Even among knowledgeable knife afficionados, you're not going to find a consensus as to what a "blade" really is exactly, not to mention how it should be measured.

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Rick1955 · Feb 1, 2001

Originally posted by Rick1955:
A question for all, especially law enforcement officers and attorneys:

Many laws relating to knives specify certain stated blade lengths as being legal or illegal. Sometimes the wording is vague or confusing but usually laws list the maximum length of a knife blade for it to be legal and any length over that is illegal to carry.
This gives great latitude to the police and the courts to determine the definition of the legal length of a knife blade.

But how is blade length measured? I have only seen laws from two jurisdictions that specify how knife blades are to be measured. Technically, blade length is measured along the longest straight line from the tip of the point to the farthest end of the tang, (which is usually inside the handle).

To cover myself, I consider the total length of the blade as I have described above - including that part of the blade in the handle.

I have seen all kinds of ways that police officers measure blades - including using parts of their hand!

So I would like to hear from all of you that have knowledge of this or even an opinion.

Thanks.

Rick1955 · Feb 1, 2001

What is the maximum legal length of of knife blade on an otherwise legal to carry knife in your jurisdiction:

Texas: 5 1/2 inches -Chapter 46 Penal Code.