blade making from Damascas shotgun barrels

P

PeterB

Joined
Apr 29, 2007
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I have secured a bunch of cut off barrels from numerous kinds of twist steel and Damascas shotgun barrels in the 6"-14" length. I am considering turning these into knife blades.

Has anyone here done this before?

I know I'll have to heat the solder and separate the solder and ribs and also hone the interior to remove pits & rust. The end product is rather soft so I'll either have to reharden or forge it onto a steel core for the edge.

The end product will be numerous varieties of barrel Damascas and twist/laminated steel which is completely different from normal blade Damascas.

Barrel Damascas was made in this way:

Normally 3-5 layers of often 1/4' wide alternating iron and steel were forged together to make it thicker. Usually 3-5 pieces were then twisted alternatingly in right and left hand twists. These were forged flat and welded side to side. This was then wrapped around a mandrel and welded side to side. The blank was then filed to thickness.

These were usually made in England and the continent (mostly Belgium). They were never made in America although Leferver had a patent on a process. The European blanks were finished in America on American guns. The Damascas was as strong as the "fluid" steel of the day. Failure pressure was about 30,000 psi for each type of barrel.
 
Sounds like a cool project.. If you find that it won't work for some reason I would like to buy a few pieces from you for another idea that I have...Good luck in your endeavor..:cool:
 
Peter, Welcome the shop talk. Im impressed you know the process for the damascus gun barrels. Ive always wanted to try the old methods but I need more facts before I attempt it.

I also have several of the damascus shotgun barrel cut-offs. They are low carbon and therefore wont hold and edge if welded into a knife but I always thought I would flatten one almost out and fill the space with 1084 powder metal and forge weld it as the core. The problem is the barrel is so thin that I would more than likely grind it away. We should put our heads together and solve this one.

where are you at in Oregon?
 
Bruce Bump said:
Peter, Welcome the shop talk. Im impressed you know the process for the damascus gun barrels. Ive always wanted to try the old methods but I need more facts before I attempt it.
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If you're ever out on the right coast Bruce, we'll have a run to Williamsburg, they have a working gunsmith shop where they weld their own barrels. I've been wanting to get down there to see the gunsmiths and the blacksmith shop ever since I took a class from the Master 'smith from Williamsburg, Ken Schwartz.

I also have several of the damascus shotgun barrel cut-offs. They are low carbon and therefore wont hold and edge if welded into a knife but I always thought I would flatten one almost out and fill the space with 1084 powder metal and forge weld it as the core. The problem is the barrel is so thin that I would more than likely grind it away. We should put our heads together and solve this one.
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How about setting it up in a stainless can and forging to shape inside the can ala Ariel's cable knives? You'd end up with a san-mai look after grinding, but if you were careful with it it could look pretty cool. Mix two powders (1084 & 4600KC?) and you might get a sparkly field effect to the core which could be really wicked looking. It'd take some playing with to be sure, but if you got it down it could be awesome.

-d
 
Hi Bruce,
I am in the Bend/Sisters area of Central Oregon. Most barrels have (usually) a 0.025" mininum thickness to 0.060" and a bit thicker for 10 Ga. Going a foot back to where most of these are cut off thickens that. Of course, forging a barrel flat doubles that. To solve the thickness problem and softness problem, I forsee forging to a center piece of more usual and appropriate knife steel. I have a blade forged by Dan Westlind who unwrapped some cable steel and rewrapped it around a center piece of high nickle steel then forged. The result is a very neat blade. I would think forging onto a pre-ground blank would be best unless the blade was small. We would need to figure what end product size would be. Length and thickness of final product matched to the layer added. Being a gun show addict, I usually figure the bigger the better. 12 Ga barrels are usually .729 internally so that makes the flattened piece about 0.078-0.080" wide with 10 ga being larger. If one slit a barrel and flattened it, you could double the thickness and make a neat Bowie.

I also sell gemstones and fancy wood for gunstocks so have unusual handle material. I have made pistol and knife handles out of jade, ivory, petrified wood, dinosaur bone (looks GREAT on cable steel), fossilized fish on filet knives, and other odd materials.

There is almost an unlimited variety of Damascas types. Chain, star, Bernard, etc, etc. The laminated/twist types also vary. The Euros then browned the barrels and the Americans used the much more beautiful but hard to master "Black & White" process.

Give me a call 541-382-5320
 
There was a gunsmith of Williamsburg video I saw 30+ years ago. They showed the barrel making process which was VERY interesting. What was truly wild was seeing the guy take a hammer and block of steel and pliers to hold it and make a perfect looking flint hammer without any finish work. That guy was a true artist!
 
I didn't know you could use powder. I am new to the technical end of knives.

Rocketmann: I have a slow but continuing supply of Damascas so call or email me.

Pete
 
There were good quality, bad quality and even fake damascus barrels .I doubt that any had high enough carbon to get a good blade .A laminate of good steel core and damascus outside might be the best way.
 
The fake Damascas barrels were only on cheap foreign guns. There were no fake Damascas barrels on American guns though many dealers will try to convince you of this. However, recent tests have shown that Damascas barrels were just as strong as regular "fluid" steel barrels until the 1930's. No American Damascas barreled gun has ever failed nitro proof tests in England.

Few have ever seen the MINT black and white Damascas as used on American guns. I cannot fathom anyone ever choosing fluid steel over Damascas. It was incredibly beautiful. Damasacas barrels are still available in England coming from old barrel blanks recently found. The guns are spendy starting at about $40,000.
 
went to a gun and knife show a few years ago and saw a table selling knives that were forged from guns.

The knives looked great and when I returned to see them again all the knives were sold out.
 
The barrels made at Williamsburg are hammered into a skelp, then hammered around a mandrel, ending up with a forge welded seam up the middle. They are not like Damascus at all. According to the tape showing this, it takes two men, one week to make and finish a barrel. The Williamsburg guns sell for over $20,000, last I heard. The guy in the tape is Wallace Gusler, he is still alive and well, and I will be seeing him two weeks from now at Martin's Station, VA.
 
Give Wallace my best regards. I was a friend of William Buchelle who passed away at advanced age about 30 years ago. He was an absolute master with homemade hand tools and one of the best Pa longrifle makers of any era.
 
PeterB said:
The Damasacas would make neat handle coating material, too.
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The black and white patterns are very ornate and would look cool as an inlay or a wrap around of some type.

I also saw the "Gunsmith of Williamsburg" video several times. Its simply amazing what a craftsman he is.

Ive played around with some of the damacus barrel steel and cant get very good constrast with the basic wrap patterns. The black and white twist though should show off nicely but I dont have very pieces of it. They are so thin I think the knife will have to be small though. Not a bad thing
 
The B&W process uses toxic chemicals like Mercuric Chloride. It was used 60 years ago and mixed with water to clean hospitals. Unfortunately, it leads to a rare cancer unless you have special handling equipment. A friend was the best in the US at it, but died from that rare cancer. Another friend is experimenting with the processes with advanced safety equipment but is not yet satisfied with the results. The Damascas still looks good but can be magnificent.
 
Over the years, many smiths have used these old barrels to forge San Mia blades. Works just fine. In the not too distant past, they (Damascus barreled shot guns) were a dime a dozen at local shows. I always wondered why they were so cheap. As they were so unique, and beautiful. Looks like they are finally getting their just rewards. Mike
 
These barrels were all made in Europe. Following WW2, there was a big increase in hunting interest as follows every major war. Many of the factories were in poor shape and workers moved on to something else. It was much easier to produce large numbers of fluid steel barrels than Damascus which took experts. The manufacturers started to diss the Damascus barrels saying that they were inferior and dangerous. Gun writers will believe anything anyone tells them and the lie spread. Now many folks continued to use them with no problems but the young would tell stories about ol grandad still using that Damascus gun and how crazy he was. Well, Sherman Bell did tests of Damascus vs regular steel to disprove this. He took two Parker #2 frames, one Damascus and one "fluid" steel and scientifically fired them to destruction. All four barrels finally blew at 29,000-30,000 psi. In addition, there were British government tests in the late 1880's which came to the conclusion that a certain Laminated twist beat both Damascus and fluid steel in strength. Of course, time and steel changes. By the 1930's, fluid steel WAS stronger but the stouter Damascus guns still pass the London and Birmingham nitro proof tests (modern loads). Moreover with a powder like IMR PB or 7425, you can get 12 ga 1150 FPS with AA wads & RXP hulls and be at around 4200 psi. That is significantly under the old standard loads. Unfortunately, it would cost a fortune to make those barrels now although some old barrel blanks are being put on new guns and barrels that are similar in looks to the original barrels are being made in Sweden. Not the same though. Today, many of us fire the old guns, but each one must be judged upon its own merits which is true of the old fluid steel barrels also.

Still, the knife project really is interesting.
 
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