Blade Steels - Have We Been Fleeced By Marketing?

Several years ago, I met Blackie Collins at a Knifemaker's Guild Show. While discussing steels, he told me that there's no such thing as a bad knife steel. If it can be hardened above about 55 or 56RC, you can make a perfectly serviceable knife out of it. The caveat, of course, is that with proper design, grind, blade geometry and heat-treat, you can make a perfectly serviceable knife. As an aside, BC was a big fan of the Sandvik alloys, steels actually designed for cutlery, for their cleanliness, fine grain structure, and relative ease of getting a GOOD heat-treat. Unfortunately, not all makers take the time or expense to do a proper heat treatment. The thing that irks me more than the hype around the super-steels is when a manufacturer uses sub-standard, non-knife steel, like 3cr13mov, or even 5cr15mov, and tries to make it sound better than it really is. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still gonna smell like a pig.
 
scottyj said:
Jim Behring aka "Treeman" uses old Dodge springs.
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An old uncle of mine (80++) said when they were kids, they had to play baseball in a cow pasture. Running bases, they had to "dodge cow plops". So we kids thereafter referred to "Dodge Cow Plop" as a car. :)
 
scott.livesey said:
Lots of steel that shows "knife" in usage goes into blades that turn bulls into bologna, tires into mulch, or pollock into fake crab. Last time I sat and figured, consumer cutlery was about 10% of total 'knife steel' output. Stuff like Rex121 or Maxamet are hybrid steels meant to bridge HS steel and carbide machine tools(drill bits, broaches, mills, that sorta stuff). Rex121 and Maxamet are not available to small scale knifemakers.
Steel maker won't release catra tests, the knife maker would. All part of marketing hype. If a knife company tomorrow released a blade with laser cutting geometry made of O1 or 52100, would anyone even bother to review it? Maybe if they called the steel 100MnCrW4 it might get more notice.
scott
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I seem to have missed the point of your last few posts. A steel that has better edge retention than Maxamet will come out in the future. And? I don't how an industry standard test for edge retention is relevant. There are more tests than I can count showing edge retention trends. Why is them not being standardized an issue? I don't get the relevance to Catra tests. Like any other test, it's one measure. And?

I get that edge retention is only one aspect of a blade. I choose to carry VG-10, BD1, and Sandvik steels often.
 
David Richardson said:
I seem to have missed the point of your last few posts. Read the posts I quoted.
A steel that has better edge retention than Maxamet will come out in the future. And? I don't how an industry standard test for edge retention is relevant. There are more tests than I can count showing edge retention trends. Why is them not being standardized an issue? If testing has no standard, it is not testing, it is a demonstration. why do we believe HRc, because it is a referenced standard that any tester can duplicate.
I get that edge retention is only one aspect of a blade. I choose to carry VG-10, BD1, and Sandvik steels often.
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Wonderful. The thread is not about Maxamet and I never said anything bad about Maxamet. It is about marketing hype driven by current "Steel of the Hour" which seems this week to be Maxamet. 6 months ago it was HAP70, 6 months before that Rex121.
My backround is electronic and mechanical calibration, every test yields a measurement can be referenced to a known, repeatable standard. That Little Johnny and Billy Joe have a videos where their blades slice more cardboard than blade X, it is a nice demonstration but not a repeatable test.
the old sailor
 
Really I only see mfgs putting out s30v, s35vn and m390 as the mainstream steels now for different tiers.

With vg10, 8cr13mov, 12c27, 14c28n, d2 etc as the budget options.

All the other super steels are mostly optional or sprint runs.

People want to pay a premium for quality and with that they want a unique steel to go with that quality. And price.

Most people don't want a reate, zt, we knives high quality knife with 8cr13mov for example. So the manufacturer isn't flossing us, the customer is demanding it.

If I'm looking for a high end knife. I probably don't want it in s30v. I mean unless I knew it was a very good heat treatment and thin behind the edge. But the resell value of that is still just s30v cause people don't know what ht is. They just care if it's m390 and tacticool looking.

People don't want a twosun knife with d2 steel and tc4 handles on bearings for under 100$. They want bearings on 6Ti-4Al titanium and m390 with excellent quality for under 300$

Its still true that budget knives still outsell the high quality knives. But the real reason the more expensive steel is being popularized is due to the want for something they perceive is more premium for there high end knives dollar.

Edge retention and corrosion resistance is part of that premium perception as well. Though rope cut tests is just one equation and people take it as gospel. Cardboard cut tests often show less of a difference between steels with similar hrc. And depend more on unique heat treatments, very high hrc and blade/edge geometry.

many of these high end buyers are not using there knives. Mostly fidget knives or safe knives or buying and selling. Cause they don't want to decrease its value. Some do use them. But that's probably a minority.
 
"Smoke and mirrors" , "Hype" and "fleeced". All strong words designed to sway emotions. Can we get examples of mainstream knife manufacturers hyping or in any way misrepresenting steel and it's performance. I've seen customers of the companies doing such on forums but I'm having a difficult time recalling any company doing so in official statements and advertisements.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened. I'm saying I must have missed it. When a company puts out a product customers have asked for and then advertise that it's got X, Y, and Z product I don't consider it hype unless some overstatement or falsification is occurring. That is just advertising. Note I'm not talking about companies falsifying where it has products made, what it's made of or referring to 3 story high security lab/museums that just don't exist. I don't think it's fair to compare the actions of crooks with valid marketing of knives.

So, any help is appreciated.

Joe
 
scott.livesey said:
Wonderful. The thread is not about Maxamet and I never said anything bad about Maxamet. It is about marketing hype driven by current "Steel of the Hour" which seems this week to be Maxamet. 6 months ago it was HAP70, 6 months before that Rex121.
My backround is electronic and mechanical calibration, every test yields a measurement can be referenced to a known, repeatable standard. That Little Johnny and Billy Joe have a videos where their blades slice more cardboard than blade X, it is a nice demonstration but not a repeatable test.
the old sailor
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No, it's about the edges, better steels take and hold better edges, if people don't use or sharpen than there is no difference to them anyways. You haven't tried any of these steels you lambast as hype. Yet, you marginalize anyone showing evidence or data showing that these steels have increased edge performance. It's a complex subject but that doesn't mean folks should give up and say everything is irrelevant. I rather enjoy not having to stop what I'm doing to sharpen every 5 seconds.
 
Hype is when they tell you that steel A has better edge-holding than steel B, AND is easier to sharpen. When they don't tell you that steel A ONLY has better edge-holding and sharpening when it is ground to a 12 degree edge and used to chop veggies in the kitchen. Give it a 17 degree edge, like a proper outdoors knife in steel B, and a mediocre heat-treat like the factory, and you find that steel A rolls easily, and won't get as sharp as steel B. THAT'S hype.

It's all about picking the right steel for the knife design, getting a GOOD heat treatment with a Rockwell hardness appropriate for the intended use, and proper sharpening, as well as CUTTING, technique.

The single most important, and disappointing, fact of the entire discussion of commercial blade steels is that bean-counters have the last word...
 
Geometry and Heat treatment are the most important and the steel gets more focus than it should, but at the same time some steels can support better geometry and have better microstructures thanks to their innate chemistries being put to work with Heat Treatment

If k390 and 420HC have the same geometry and heat treatment maxmized for cutting than it's impossible for the 420hc to out cut the k390 because the edge would simply blunt sooner on the 420.

Everything goes dull but I like to sharpen when I want, not because I have to.

Super steels don't replace sharpening, they reward the time investment to make a good edge with longer cutting.


The problem is that companies will sell a steel in the wrong context. Or wash out the increased performance for cutting with thicker geometry and marginal HT.

M390 is the best example of this. It is a great steel but could offer more to the community if it was run a tad harder and thinner
 
OK guys , let's face the reality :D In 99% case ceramic blade will cover all my needs and will hold edge to eternity..........:p BUT there was are time when I need to do things like on this picture...to open can with knife .Can Maxamet , Rex 121 do that without catastrophic failure of edge or break at half ? Geometry.......heat treatment ........enough with that :D Steel is like your gene ........YOU have what your parents give to you , nothing MORE nothing LESS and you can not do anything to improve that .If your father is bald/loos most of hair on 40 age..............you will loose it too , sooner or later :p Same with the steel........everything was done in mill , they make steel with intent to do specific tasks . And many of them are NOT made for knives , like that famous MAXAMET :p My point is .....I want one knife for all .To cut cheese and to open can .....and there was are many simple/cheap steel that can do that ! I don t care how long edge will last on that knife ........IF I ever run paper factory I will care about that...:thumbsup:
BW , try to cut nail with knife without using hammer on spine , just hit the nail hard with blade like you will do that in wood ....... and SEE what would happen :p
zMQAjn2.jpg
 
Its like any industry. They must change or sales will stagnate. Heat treating is more important than the steel used from what I've read.
 
Natlek said:
OK guys , let's face the reality :D In 99% case ceramic blade will cover all my needs and will hold edge to eternity..........:p BUT there was are time when I need to do things like on this picture...to open can with knife .Can Maxamet , Rex 121 do that without catastrophic failure of edge or break at half ? Geometry.......heat treatment ........enough with that :D Steel is like your gene ........YOU have what your parents give to you , nothing MORE nothing LESS and you can not do anything to improve that .If your father is bald/loos most of hair on 40 age..............you will loose it too , sooner or later :p Same with the steel........everything was done in mill , they make steel with intent to do specific tasks . And many of them are NOT made for knives , like that famous MAXAMET :p My point is .....I want one knife for all .To cut cheese and to open can .....and there was are many simple/cheap steel that can do that ! I don t care how long edge will last on that knife ........IF I ever run paper factory I will care about that...:thumbsup:
BW , try to cut nail with knife without using hammer on spine , just hit the nail hard with blade like you will do that in wood ....... and SEE what would happen :p
zMQAjn2.jpg
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Yea... This all depends on heat treatment, geometry and composition. Else you'll break the blade or tip or whatever the task is.

Some knives just weren't designed for certain tasks.
 
DeadboxHero said:
No, it's about the edges, better steels take and hold better edges, if people don't use or sharpen than there is no difference to them anyways. You haven't tried any of these steels you lambast as hype. Yet, you marginalize anyone showing evidence or data showing that these steels have increased edge performance. It's a complex subject but that doesn't mean folks should give up and say everything is irrelevant. I rather enjoy not having to stop what I'm doing to sharpen every 5 seconds.
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Well said. I won't debate this issue any more for fear of getting even more repetitive.

Natlek said:
OK guys , let's face the reality :D In 99% case ceramic blade will cover all my needs and will hold edge to eternity..........:p BUT there was are time when I need to do things like on this picture...to open can with knife .Can Maxamet , Rex 121 do that without catastrophic failure of edge or break at half ? Geometry.......heat treatment ........enough with that :D Steel is like your gene ........YOU have what your parents give to you , nothing MORE nothing LESS and you can not do anything to improve that .If your father is bald/loos most of hair on 40 age..............you will loose it too , sooner or later :p Same with the steel........everything was done in mill , they make steel with intent to do specific tasks . And many of them are NOT made for knives , like that famous MAXAMET :p My point is .....I want one knife for all .To cut cheese and to open can .....and there was are many simple/cheap steel that can do that ! I don t care how long edge will last on that knife ........IF I ever run paper factory I will care about that...:thumbsup:
BW , try to cut nail with knife without using hammer on spine , just hit the nail hard with blade like you will do that in wood ....... and SEE what would happen :p
zMQAjn2.jpg
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That's a good example. I use my knives when needed and sometimes have to cut unexpected materials. Not sure about Maxamet. I'm guessing Spyderco's Rex 121 would be fine based on Deadboxhero's brass carving test with it.
 
I think that most powdered steels are generally "better" than the older steels that have been used for knives. Marketing has something to do with their success. But in general you choose a knife based on your need and your sense of function and value. A little sharpening weekly is no big deal to me as opposed to once a month or something.
 
David Richardson said:
Well said. I won't debate this issue any more for fear of getting even more repetitive.


That's a good example. I use my knives when needed and sometimes have to cut unexpected materials. Not sure about Maxamet. I'm guessing Spyderco's Rex 121 would be fine based on Deadboxhero's brass carving test with it.
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I'd avoid going wild on the Maxamet and Rex121.

10v/A11 type steels seem to be the limit for that. Yet these won't touch the raw horsepower of Rex 121

Also the geometry for being able to do both cutting on metal and being able to slice is limited to 0.015"bte. Cannot go lower if using for knuckle head stuff.

Also 20dps is critical.

But that doesn't hold a candle to the pure cutting performance at 0.010" and 12dps

So pick and choose.


Natlek,
I'd rather just use it like a knife and not a can opener and get more performance.

Can openers aren't made out of any crazy steel they just cleve and sheer by using thick geometry with soft steel. So why water down my knife to do that?

I'd rather have the thin geometry, harder steel cutting for performance over cleaving and sheering with thick geometry with softer steel.

No right or wrong answer for everyone, that's just my preference.
 
Look , I need knife .......the whole package not just edge. That maxamet and REX 121 will break at half on wind....THEY are fragile , forget that bla..bla..... edge geometry that can cut in can without damage !That edge/blade need handle to be useful tool :D I fish in difficult to access terrain far from the vehicle , more then two hour walking to get there , no phone signal............. no one else in miles .......... I will never take there with me one of my 67 Hrc HSS knives ............ never ! They can hold edge forever but that is not what I need there .I need knife which can do weird things if necessary :)
Maxamet ,Rex 121 and all my HSS knives are good for cutting cardboard or rope to make boring videos for You tube . I will not let my life ever depend on them ........ :thumbsdown:
 
I think people just like to say cool steel names like Maxamet, Rex 121, and Hitachi Super Blue, which are all obviously cooler than 440c and 13mov and 1095.

With that in mind, nothing will ever be as cool as "bigass titanium sword," amirite?
 
Mecha said:
I think people just like to say cool steel names like Maxamet, Rex 121, and Hitachi Super Blue, which are all obviously cooler than 440c and 13mov and 1095.

With that in mind, nothing will ever be as cool as "bigass titanium sword," amirite?
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It's all about bragging rights. Got in a conversation with a gent at a mall a few months ago. In the course of the conversation he said he collected knives. I pulled out my small Sebenza as he pulled out his rainbow anodized MTech POS. It was obvious he thought he had bested me so I just smiled and changed the subject.
 
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