Blade Steels - Have We Been Fleeced By Marketing?

[Dean51]

The only time you are getting fleeced is if a company advertises X steel and sells you A steel.

Otherwise it's called advertising. Everything you buy is advertised and hyped as the best. Your car, clothes, TV, the little blue pill, even the screen you're looking at now. There's as much hype going on here as the manufactures put out.

The fan boys of simple or low carbon steels who try and tell you they are better than supersteels and anything else is unnecessary. The super steel fans who say anything less is liner materal. The argument about need is worthless, need has nothing to do with what you want.

Heat treat vs geometry vs steel all things being equal steel trumps all. It's the combination of heat treat, geometry and steel that determines how an edge performs. Geometry being equal D2 at a 61 or 57 HRC is going to out perform AUS-8. It would take a truly excellent heat treat on AUS-8 and a truly awful heat teat on D2, to make those two steels perform the same. The same applies to geometry. It's possible to put such a bad geometry on D2 that you negate most of the advantages you get from the steel.

The video the OP posted compares S30V, 1080, and 8cr13mov and says he can't tell the difference. All I can say is there is something wrong with his test. In edge retention 1080, and 8cr13mov aren't even close to S30V. Yet some will take what is a flawed test and quote it as the final word.

All steels have characteristics that set it apart from another steel. 420J2 is stainless and easy to sharpen on anything handy but won't hold an edge long. S90V holds an incredible edge much longer than 420j2 and it's easy to sharpen with the right tools and knowledge. 1095 is much tougher than S90V but isn't stainless. With all steels you get a little and give a little, it's up to the user to educate themselves. If you don't educate yourself you'll feel like you got fleeced. You didn't but you'll feel like it.

You can't have a steel discussion without asking the question, better at what use, or for who and their uses. Sometimes you may want a super steel or a simple carbon steel and you don't have to justify that to anyone.

It's a great time to be a knife nut, there are choices that didn't exist when I started carrying a knife in the late 60's. Today I can choose a barlow in 1095 or M390, or a modern in AUS-8 or S110V, as well as the modern traditionals coming out.

I would like to see more discussion on a steels characteristics and geometry and mush less useless chatter about simple steel vs super steel. Geometry and steel characteristics are two things that are not well understood by many.

D2, AUS-8 and 1095.

 

[Mo2]

The only time you are getting fleeced is if a company advertises X steel and sells you A steel.

Otherwise it's called advertising. Everything you buy is advertised and hyped as the best. Your car, clothes, TV, the little blue pill, even the screen you're looking at now. There's as much hype going on here as the manufactures put out.

The fan boys of simple or low carbon steels who try and tell you they are better than supersteels and anything else is unnecessary. The super steel fans who say anything less is liner materal. The argument about need is worthless, need has nothing to do with what you want.

Heat treat vs geometry vs steel all things being equal steel trumps all. It's the combination of heat treat, geometry and steel that determines how an edge performs. Geometry being equal D2 at a 61 or 57 HRC is going to out perform AUS-8. It would take a truly excellent heat treat on AUS-8 and a truly awful heat teat on D2, to make those two steels perform the same. The same applies to geometry. It's possible to put such a bad geometry on D2 that you negate most of the advantages you get from the steel.

The video the OP posted compares S30V, 1080, and 8cr13mov and says he can't tell the difference. All I can say is there is something wrong with his test. In edge retention 1080, and 8cr13mov aren't even close to S30V. Yet some will take what is a flawed test and quote it as the final word.

All steels have characteristics that set it apart from another steel. 420J2 is stainless and easy to sharpen on anything handy but won't hold an edge long. S90V holds an incredible edge much longer than 420j2 and it's easy to sharpen with the right tools and knowledge. 1095 is much tougher than S90V but isn't stainless. With all steels you get a little and give a little, it's up to the user to educate themselves. If you don't educate yourself you'll feel like you got fleeced. You didn't but you'll feel like it.

You can't have a steel discussion without asking the question, better at what use, or for who and their uses. Sometimes you may want a super steel or a simple carbon steel and you don't have to justify that to anyone.

It's a great time to be a knife nut, there are choices that didn't exist when I started carrying a knife in the late 60's. Today I can choose a barlow in 1095 or M390, or a modern in AUS-8 or S110V, as well as the modern traditionals coming out.

I would like to see more discussion on a steels characteristics and geometry and mush less useless chatter about simple steel vs super steel. Geometry and steel characteristics are two things that are not well understood by many.

D2, AUS-8 and 1095.

And that concluded this thread. Thank you.

 

[Rasmus80]

Well, I do think this has been a healthy discussion, as it appears both sides of the argument has been touched.
Steel choice is by no means irrelevant, and new steel types does offer new advantages

But older steel types has merits that can not and should not be ignored.

Steel type is just a very easy parameter to judge a knife by. And probably more exciting to discuss than geometry and HT.

 

[BITEME]

I went from carrying this in M390:
I've been slowly climbing aboard this boat for a while, especially after all the yt Videos doing comparisons that are very interesting they are doing what I would do and then some,once you get decent at sharpening it opens a lot of options for you,been picking up some old classics, saks,buck,seki, etc.. they cut cardboard,rope,slice food all pretty decently.

To this, a simple little SAK in soft whatever it's called steel:

Due to superior geometry it cuts with a razor edge better for longer. It cost me under $20, I can strop it up on my chinos and sharpen in minutes.

Recently I've given up on anything but Victorinox for my EDC uses after years of working my way through the usual suspects to the detriment of my bank account. Geometry and ease of ownership over super steels for me. They're super cheap, super stainless, super people friendly, take a hair popping edge remarkably easily, slip unnoticed into a pocket and they just work. In a way that gives me quiet satisfaction every time. Oh and they're pretty easy to mod like the one shown above.

 

[BITEME]

Same here brother

 

[BITEME]

Any knife you decide to carry bests a sebenza that you are not carrying. Or "a knife in the hand beats two in the safe any day".
The argument of what's best is always subjective to all, personally I like my ZT les george best so far but I am just starting in the knife game, my philosophy won't change though, everyone likes what they like so I respect that.
It really only comes down to what the individual likes and will carry and has little to do with the opinions of others, except the others that love to impose their will, those guys won't stop until you agree with them so just pretend like you agree with them to shut them up, saves a lot of time.
If you like a sharpened prybar then you prob won't like a sebenza and if you like a thin blade then you prob won't like a Strider but both will do just fine when needed for general use.

Your da man,love your philosophy

 

[rogatsby]

This thread has turned out great, with informative posts from both sides, and without any name-calling or insults. Bravo to all of you knife nuts.

 

[sabre cat]

"...I would like to see more discussion on a steels characteristics and geometry and mush less useless chatter about simple steel vs super steel. Geometry and steel characteristics are two things that are not well understood by many."

Personally, I'd like more discussion about geometry and heat treatment. I don't know much about either one but, I can't help but feel that they are more important than the steel used.

 

[Dean51]

"...I would like to see more discussion on a steels characteristics and geometry and mush less useless chatter about simple steel vs super steel. Geometry and steel characteristics are two things that are not well understood by many."

Personally, I'd like more discussion about geometry and heat treatment. I don't know much about either one but, I can't help but feel that they are more important than the steel used.

When I bought my first super steel at the time it was D2, I bought a KME diamond set to go with it. That first time I sharpened it, took some time. I was starting to think I really goofed aka fleeced. Later when I needed to resharpen it it was a piece of cake. That first hit with the stones was a reprofile not a simple sharpening.

Heat treat, geometry, and steel, all have a role to play and they each need more discussion about the benefits of each.
There's just to much useless chatter about simple steel vs super steel and it's a waste of time.

Heat treat can make a steel perform better. Take Case's 420HC vs Buck's 420HC you can probably cut an extra 20ft of cardboard with the Buck. Buck's 420HC will not cut as long as 1095 with a good heat treat and similar geometry.

Geometry can make a steel perform better. I experimented with that rat in AUS-8 at 20 DPS, then changed it to 18 DPS and it cut an extra 35 ft. of cardboard. That's better but still not equal to the Rat with D2.

Heat treat and geometry can make a steel perform better within it's class. Neither is a magic wand and in the end 420HC is 420HC. It will never come close holding a working edge like CPM-S90V.

I have a LionSteel Shuffler M390 and a Queen 1095 barlow, thickness behind the edge, spine thickness, and width edge to spine, are nearly identical. With out a doubt the M390 holds an edge longer.

That doesn't mean the 1095 is a bad steel, or that M390 is a better steel.
They have different qualities and each will be better suited to different uses and/or preferences. You don't recommend S110V to someone who can't sharpen or 1085 to someone who wants maximum edge retention.

It's why I say “Heat treat vs geometry vs steel all things being equal steel trumps all. “

 

[sabre cat]

...Geometry can make a steel perform better. I experimented with that rat in AUS-8 at 20 DPS, then changed it to 18 DPS and it cut an extra 35 ft. of cardboard. That's better but still not equal to the Rat with D2.

Food for thought.

I have a D2 Rat. What do you recommend for it? Is the DPS the same or different than AUS-8?

 

[Dean51]

Food for thought.

I have a D2 Rat. What do you recommend for it? Is the DPS the same or different than AUS-8?

I guess it depends on what you do with it. More acute for lighter work, more obtuse for not so edge friendly work.

The two Rats are thicker behind the edge than any other folder I own. At 20 DPS I didn't think they were very slicy, also I tend to use them as work knives. I profiled them both to 17 DPS. Then to give the edge some strength I micro beveled to 20 DPS. Then as needed I re sharpening at 20 DPS until the micro bevel isn't so micro any more.

Just good durable working edges, nothing fancy but it works for what they do.
The AUS-8 gets 320 aluminum oxide and the D2 gets 600 diamond.

 

[Climb14er]

I have knives with S90V, M2, 1095 Carbon, 420 and S30V. ALL are excellent for what they do and all could easily be EDC's. It's the manufacturer who creates the knife and edge that determines the quality of the final product.

With that said, my Spyderco PM2 and Sage 2 Ti, both S30V steel... I will match against virtually every other knife to be used as an EDC.

 

[David Richardson]

"...I would like to see more discussion on a steels characteristics and geometry and mush less useless chatter about simple steel vs super steel. Geometry and steel characteristics are two things that are not well understood by many."

Personally, I'd like more discussion about geometry and heat treatment. I don't know much about either one but, I can't help but feel that they are more important than the steel used.

I don't disagree. The only thing I would add is intended use. Are you planning to do food prep, cut hard plastic, or baton logs all day? You'll get different recommendations based on what you plan to do with it.

There's also preference. We may cut similar stuff with our EDC blades and still have different preferences. I prefer a thinner, harder EDC blade. Some want a softer steel that gets back to sharpness faster. Neither is wrong.

 

[sabre cat]

I don't disagree. The only thing I would add is intended use. Are you planning to do food prep, cut hard plastic, or baton logs all day? You'll get different recommendations based on what you plan to do with it.

There's also preference. We may cut similar stuff with our EDC blades and still have different preferences. I prefer a thinner, harder EDC blade. Some want a softer steel that gets back to sharpness faster. Neither is wrong.

Never thought about adding intended use into the mix. Good idea.

Funny how our likes and dislikes change with time. Forty years ago I reached for clip points. Now it’s drop point FFG if possible.

What I can’t figure out is how people survive using a blade that’s only an inch and a half or 2 inches long. Makes zero sense to me. The same holds true for 4 inches or more on a folder.

 

[sabre cat]

I guess it depends on what you do with it. More acute for lighter work, more obtuse for not so edge friendly work.

The two Rats are thicker behind the edge than any other folder I own. At 20 DPS I didn't think they were very slicy, also I tend to use them as work knives. I profiled them both to 17 DPS. Then to give the edge some strength I micro beveled to 20 DPS. Then as needed I re sharpening at 20 DPS until the micro bevel isn't so micro any more.

Just good durable working edges, nothing fancy but it works for what they do.
The AUS-8 gets 320 aluminum oxide and the D2 gets 600 diamond.

Just what I was looking for. I think I might try that with my D2 Rat. Thanks

 

[Dean51]

I don't disagree. The only thing I would add is intended use. Are you planning to do food prep, cut hard plastic, or baton logs all day? You'll get different recommendations based on what you plan to do with it.

There's also preference. We may cut similar stuff with our EDC blades and still have different preferences. I prefer a thinner, harder EDC blade. Some want a softer steel that gets back to sharpness faster. Neither is wrong.

Well said.

 

[David Nowlin]

Well, read most of it from the beginning Whew! While i do like all the steel options
and in particular love a few of my knives (Spyderco and Buck) in S30V which happens to be my new favorite Steel for now. I must admit i long for the days of old when I just carried a Buck 110 on my hip on shift as a Fireman and off duty too. Still have it, wear a newer one now and then and always have a SAK in my pocket. Life is good!!

 

[farid.]

It's good we are talking about steels, I know a little about steels, I would like to add some info.
A few decades ago people said 440-c was not very good, until I heat treated it and got great results, tried A2, it was good, I tried D2 and it was great, I have used D3 and D6 for many years and they are great steels.
I have used CPM for a very long time and still carry some 3V, 4V, s90v, s60v, 10v, 15v, T1 HSS. Many years ago I experimented with REX 121.
With REX 121 it was a great tooling steel but it kind of did not work as a knife steel, it would not hold a super sharp edge and hold it for any period of time, it would only hold a semi-sharp edge.
10v worked as a knife steel provided it was heat-treated good and ground fairly thin.
15v did not work as a knife steel.
S125v worked ok as a knife steel.
s90v is just great.
3v is just great.
s60v is just great.

Lately I have been making Japanese kitchen knives from M35 HSS steel at 62-64RC, as far as I can remember I have been looking for a steel which works for knife application regardless of being stainless or not, I just wanted to get to the point of saying 'this steel is the best high performance steel I have ever used which actually have knife properties.

What I mean when I say 'knife properties' is a grade of steel which cuts beyond all other steels I have ever used, a grade of steel which when sharpened it will hold a super sharp edge for the longest time, it all depends on the heat-treating, blade geometry, edge geometry, how fine you finish the final edge, also things we have to understand is 'can a certain steel support a very thin edge at a certain RC' ,I am right now trying to spend some time on testing this M35 HSS steel. This HSS steel is not the highest alloyed steel but it has unbelievable knife properties to say the least, 'The Best I have Ever Seen so Far' it also did extremely well under my 15 Ton hydraulic press, bent quite a distance before I pushed it last week to breaking point, I was very impressed.
I will share my findings with you all as soon as I know, also I will upload pics of my cutting test of this steel on here and also on my instagram.
Farid Mehr

 

[NicoColt1911]

To some degree IMO it is an American phenomenon. When I started browsing American online knife communities about 3 years ago I was puzzled about this. I had already had some experience with knives and some EU made (mostly Italian) knives. Let me remind you: Nowadays most European knife makers have access to PM steels (especially M390 and Elmax) and PM steel is common in higher priced knives but back then it wasn't uncommon for even 200€ knives to only have N690 or D2. These steels certainly were nothing to brag about but they were good enough for every task I put them to. And most people in the European forums I frequented had the same opinion.

However, it almost seemed to be consensus in American communities back then that these steels suck. Maybe it's because the big US-Forums were always more collector and less user focused?

Over the time I have bought more and more PM steel blades but I still buy knives I like even when they "only" have a N690/D2/VG10 blade.

 

[The Mastiff]

Farid, always good to see you show up and let us know which steels you are working with now and how they are doing. You were one of the first knife makers I saw that was really pushing for newer and higher performing knives. That goes way back.


"However, it almost seemed to be consensus in American communities back then that these steels suck. Maybe it's because the big US-Forums were always more collector and less user focused?"

Nico, The US supports a large community of what Sal G. ( Spyderco) calls "AFI"'s. ( Aficionados ) who are knife users, makers, some industry folks and sub groups like those called "Steel junkies" and others such as ones who are into edge performance in detail. We have called this as well as a few other forums home for obvious reasons. Most of us do look for thinner, harder and faster just as do our counterparts in the auto and motorcycle communities.

All steels are good. They just aren't all suited to our needs. I still buy D2 and VG 10 knives as well as all the "AFI" sprints and even custom offerings when needed. As far as "consensus" on anything around here that's pretty rare. I believe you misread the community.

Joe