Blade steels on forged in fire

Shing

Shing

Joined
Feb 2, 2003
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I noticed when the 2 finalists go to make a blade at their home forges, they always use carbon steels like 5160, none as far as I know use really tough steels like 3V. Most of the tests in FIF test toughness.

Is 3V difficult to forge or is 5160 tough enough and easier to forge?
 
3V is just like most air-hardening tool steel which has narrow range of forging temperature and very difficult to move under hammer.

And after finished forging it's also require full annealing which is a very time consuming process and need some temp controlled set-up equipment.

So in conclusion 3V is almost impossible to be forged for most bladesmith.
 
3V and other high alloy steels require more complicated heat treatments. They are stiff under the hammer and have a narrower band of temperature that they can be forged at.

Annealing after forging would take at least 12 hours to be done properly and tempering would require three, two and a half hour tempers at a controled temperature.

They have never showed the tempering of a blade that I know of, and most makers do not have the equipment to temper those larger pieces.

Higher quench temperatures, longer soak times, more controlled temperatures needed for annealing, quenching and tempering, and lower forgeability of high alloy steels puts it out of reach for most makers.

Simple and low alloy steels can be heat treated well using simple equipment and techniques. I also think the show provides steel for those that don’t have a big enough piece for the project.

Hoss
 
Tom Lewis said:
One criticism I have of FIF is that they don't show the tempering. They leave the impression that the blade is used in the condition it's in when it comes out of the quench.
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That is so strange the way they edit it and leave the tempering process out, not even mentioning it at all.
I wonder why? you would think the panel judges would explain that the tempering is very important and should not be ignored
 
Wil always says "fully tempered blades" before round two. I saw something that whomever is in the left seat handles the tempering process for the knives. So, they do it, but just don't show it. I have no idea how the home smiths do the tempering except the one guy who did it in oil and lit his shop on fire in the process.
 
I distinctly heard one smith in one episode in the final round say that he used the steel supplied. I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes, but have often wondered if they are given supplies for the final round. For example, in the spear episodes, who keeps spear poles on hand? I guess you can find a little sapling, but not all smiths live somewhere with trees. In the couple armor episodes, i bet they were supplied the armor steel at least.
 
Shing said:
I noticed when the 2 finalists go to make a blade at their home forges, they always use carbon steels like 5160, none as far as I know use really tough steels like 3V. Most of the tests in FIF test toughness.

Is 3V difficult to forge or is 5160 tough enough and easier to forge?
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Shing, 5160 is tougher than cpm3v “in my books”, if steel is from a reputable supplier and heat treatment is done right. Having said that, A8mod is probably my tough favorite steel, again, not so forging friendly like 5160 and 6150, but very good.
 
Short answer would be because the show is "Forged in Fire," not "Stock Removal in Fire," and the competitor pool would drop precipitously if it was limited to people who had the equipment and skill to forge 3V and then treat and temper it in five days.
 
Can see it now.

Wil: Bladesmiths, you have 15min to math your temper cycle plan. 15min later: put down your pencils, you have 4 hours to temper, your time starts now!

J: Look at those evenheats get up to temp! 200!, 300!, 375!!!! Its going to be a race to the finish!

David: That's what i like to see, good steady temperature.

Doug: It wheeeeeel Temper!

Cut to commercial........
 
I watched the first couple of episodes but stopped after seeing the number of blades that shattered, Does it not take hours to harden/temper steel correctly.
 
PoorUserName said:
I watched the first couple of episodes but stopped after seeing the number of blades that shattered, Does it not take hours to harden/temper steel correctly.
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It takes hours to temper..... the hardening happens in minutes doing a flashy hot steel in oil quench......

There is no flashy tempering process. Just hours of boredom......that's why they don't show it.....

Knives shattering is part of the show, because they are taking unknown steels, that they often have not used before,and trying to harden them by sight and magnet check alone (knife makers who harden steel by sight alone are not quite as common as they used to be, and usually have known steels in a darker environment where they have learned through experience what colors correspond with what ranges/hardness results with the chosen steel). Some of the back yard/ shade tree knife makers used to using recycled steels and more primitive methods have done well on the show. Many of the best and most respected knife makers who have lost on the show have more experience, but also are less used to the back yard, eyeball as a gauge, no thermo controlled heat treat, fly by the seat of your pants, high stress environment. Most knife makers of note these days have temperature controlled ovens, thermometers that are relatively accurate, know the temp ranges, soak time at critical temperature, how fast the temp ramp up is, what speed oil to quench in, etc, etc, etc.)
There are lots of back yard/garage knife makers that don't have the equipment, but many of the best makers have become steel scientists. Using steel manufacturers best treat protocols as a starting point, and using experimentation over and over to dial the heat treat to get the results that suit the knife best (hardness, edge retention, toughness, chip resistance, etc, etc)
 
Bigfattyt said:
It takes hours to temper..... the hardening happens in minutes doing a flashy hot steel in oil quench......

There is no flashy tempering process. Just hours of boredom......that's why they don't show it.....

Knives shattering is part of the show, because they are taking unknown steels, that they often have not used before,and trying to harden them by sight and magnet check alone (knife makers who harden steel by sight alone are not quite as common as they used to be, and usually have known steels in a darker environment where they have learned through experience what colors correspond with what ranges/hardness results with the chosen steel). Some of the back yard/ shade tree knife makers used to using recycled steels and more primitive methods have done well on the show. Many of the best and most respected knife makers who have lost on the show have more experience, but also are less used to the back yard, eyeball as a gauge, no thermo controlled heat treat, fly by the seat of your pants, high stress environment. Most knife makers of note these days have temperature controlled ovens, thermometers that are relatively accurate, know the temp ranges, soak time at critical temperature, how fast the temp ramp up is, what speed oil to quench in, etc, etc, etc.)
There are lots of back yard/garage knife makers that don't have the equipment, but many of the best makers have become steel scientists. Using steel manufacturers best treat protocols as a starting point, and using experimentation over and over to dial the heat treat to get the results that suit the knife best (hardness, edge retention, toughness, chip resistance, etc, etc)
Click to expand...

Drop your big knife off at my blade west table next week and I will give it a flashy heat treat for ya.
 
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