Blade steels - what's wrong with improvement?

Progress in betterment of cutlery steels is great, in my opinion. How cool that there is now stainless steel. :thumbup:

Perhaps the "grumpy" element to which you refer does not appreciate that their cutlery has been rendered dated in some way or another and is no longer the latest and greatest. Maybe they do not love cutting 10,000,000 tomatoes on a stone cutting surface without sharpening and never getting a patina or a wedge of stinky, steel-flavored food?? Or maybe they don't like stinky food but are so occupied chasing kids off the front lawn that they don't have the time to try out modern steels and taste a tomato slice that isn't stinky. Not sure; just a guess.

I don't know; all of this speculation about stinky tomatoes is starting to stink. I guess that, basically, what I'm saying is that ...every steel since 1095 is an unnecessary flavor of the week!

;)
 
Comeuppance said:
I'm a bit of a steel snob.

I like steels that have high toughness, wear resistance, and corrosion resistance. Luckily for me, more advanced steels seem to become available in knives almost biannually! They keep getting better and with almost unheard of properties.

And yet, there remains a segment of this little community that seems staunchly opposed to new steels. They'll use phrases like "flavor of the week" to describe them, as if that changes how much better the newer steel is. I don't understand that. It's not like a subscription service that runs out or stops being as good over time. That steel will retain it's properties and continue to be superior to the older steel regardless of how often it is used or how much someone likes an older steel.

Is it a familiarity thing? I understand if someone gets used to, say, S30V and likes how the steel performs - and I can understand wanting all knives to have whatever favored steel. What is the point, though, in badmouthing newer superior steels?

Yeah, older steels can still make good knives, but newer steels make better knives. Shouldn't we all want that? Isn't the gradual advancement something we should not only want but expect? Yeah, S30V, VG-10, and 440C used to be some of the best steels around - and now there are better ones. That's good, right? Why do so many people seem so grumpy about new steels? Don't you want a better cutting tool?
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because they are usually not all out "better"

high alloy steels trade out wear resistance for massively decreased strength and edge stability. if you want a pocket scalpel that is sharpened flat down on the stone for a tortuously thin, acute edge, you won't go for these new high carbide steels, because they simply can not keep up with a good carbon steel (or rare, low carbide stainless) at these levels of extreme edges.

that said, my personal favorite is cpm m4. but I admit to myself that cpm m4 will have very limited strength, and low edge angle stability compared to some "outdated" steels. it is "better" for me when I want an obtuse thirty degree edge and need to cut up hundreds of yards of abrasive material with no sharpening. but to say it is all out "better" than even the steel in my opinel is being extremely subjective and biased, because the simple carbon steel is equally "better" at other tasks.
 
steff27 said:
It seems that almost all modern knives come with thick blades, thick edges and highly abrasion resistant blade steels. What is the purpose of this combination? To me, it seems to be too much driven by what sounds cool, not by performance for actual use cases.

So if a company sells a high quality folder with a 2.5 mm thick blade and a thin edge with the newest, highly abrasion resistant steel, and ergonomics targeted at cardboard cutting, I'll be all over it. That would make sense.
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that company exists, and the name is spyderco.

the Delica is 2.5mm thin, and full flat and taper ground, and you can find it in zdp 189, or super blue which I think is better for "pocket scalpel" possibilities and holding acute edges. though zdp is obviously better on abrasive materials at slightly more obtuse edge angles.
 
goodeyesniper said:
because they are usually not all out "better"

high alloy steels trade out wear resistance for massively decreased strength and edge stability. if you want a pocket scalpel that is sharpened flat down on the stone for a tortuously thin, acute edge, you won't go for these new high carbide steels, because they simply can not keep up with a good carbon steel (or rare, low carbide stainless) at these levels of extreme edges.

that said, my personal favorite is cpm m4. but I admit to myself that cpm m4 will have very limited strength, and low edge angle stability compared to some "outdated" steels. it is "better" for me when I want an obtuse thirty degree edge and need to cut up hundreds of yards of abrasive material with no sharpening. but to say it is all out "better" than even the steel in my opinel is being extremely subjective and biased, because the simple carbon steel is equally "better" at other tasks.
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They aren't that weak, depending on the actual knife and steel and other factors like blade geometry, final HRC hardness and the tempering process also matters and factors into compression strength and that matters when cutting....

They can be taken down to very thin behind the edge, around .005" and with 10 DPS edge geometry and cut abrasive materials for a very long time compared to a lower alloy with the same geometry.
 
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I like S35VN and VG-10.
But I am not opposed to new steels, as long as it's not like 8Cr13MOV
 
Performance can mean a lot of things. Toughness is great in a big chopper, but in a 3" folder blade how important is it? For some better performance means holding an edge a long time in the field. For others it may mean ease of sharpening. Some might be lusting after a high alloy PM steel with lots of vanadium carbides. For myself I would not look forward to having to re-sharpen it. Some people love their carbon Moras or Opinels for ease of sharpening, but others find it necessary to buy a stainless Mora or stainless Opinel to resist harsh environmental conditions. Oxidation/corrosion plays a role in edge dulling and degradation, if you get caught in the rain outdoors and later pull a rusted hunk of metal from its sheath, it might not perform as well as you'd like. And let's face it, performance is not the only factor which affects our knife buying decisions, intangibles like perceived value for dollar, wow factor, marketing also influence our purchase decisions. For all these reasons there are many choices available to end users, and that is a good thing.
 
Comeuppance said:
For most of us, though, I feel like it's pretty cut and dry for our daily tasks. Give one guy a ZDP Endura and another a VG10 Endura and see who has the sharper knife after a week of EDC cutting. Give a guy a S30V PM2 and another a 204p PM2, 110v Native vs S30V Native, M390 Barrage vs 154cm Barrage, etc.
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Once again, that's only focusing on a single property. If edge retention was the only thing, wouldn't we all have knives made of K390 or S125V? Most steels are adequate for EDC cutting, and the more prevalent steels are a fraction of the cost of the highest end fare. Average people don't have the means to re-sharpen a super hard steel when it does eventually dull.

I'm leaning more toward 3V these days because toughness is becoming more important to me. I chipped an S30V Millie yesterday, how much longer would it have taken to fix the chip if the knife was ZDP 189? I like trying new steels, but is it a prudent investment to spend twice as much for a knife in S90V when the one in S30V works just fine? Not to mention the fact that Vandium carbides and other alloys that increase hardness are large, and affect the size of the micro crystalline structure at the apex - some people find that classic steels (if you can call BG 42, ATS 34 and CM 154 classic) slice better than some of the super steels when both are freshly sharpened. If you can strop a knife once a day for 10 seconds and keep it keener, or have a knife that you do not have to strop for a month but then takes 35 minutes to sharpen, is it really superior? Is it worth spending 400$ for one of those knives when you could buy 4 of the latter and sharpen them in a rotation? Not everyone can get the most out of the newer steels, but steels like D2, CM 154, and A2 have been around long enough that a lot of companies and makers have years of experience with them, and are confident in what they can produce with those steels. Since a knife made out of those steels is already exceptional, is the process of spending years to learn the intricacies, investing in the different tools and quenches, spending the extra money for more expensive stock, and doing extensive testing so there aren't knives sent out that will chip badly or not be any better than the product they were previously making?

I don't get where you see people opposed to new steels - but the tendency to continue doing what works or using steels that are a fraction of the cost but offer most of the performance for economic reasons (There is a much larger market for D2 knives at 100$ than S110V knives at 500$) doesn't have anything to do with bias or prejudice against new steels.
 
A Justice said:
I don't get where you see people opposed to new steels - but the tendency to continue doing what works or using steels that are a fraction of the cost but offer most of the performance for economic reasons (There is a much larger market for D2 knives at 100$ than S110V knives at 500$) doesn't have anything to do with bias or prejudice against new steels.
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Exactly, not everyone can afford $500 custom knives, or even $300 knives, while other don't want to spend more than $50 on a knife..

Everyone is different....
 
Show me a 'super steel' that can pass an American Bladesmith Society bend test.......to paraphrase Spyderco 'if the steel is the heart of a blade the heat treat is the soul'.
 
marthinus said:
Show me a 'super steel' that can pass an American Bladesmith Society bend test.......to paraphrase Spyderco 'if the steel is the heart of a blade the heat treat is the soul'.
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Actually someone did it with ELMAX if I remember correctly.... ;)

But then the ABS is different in the way they produce the blades and it's geared more toward Damascus and if the layers in the steel are welded together properly. Also deferentially heat treated, hard edge and soft spine :)

Very large difference in how the blades are made and what they are, testing the blade smiths skill of producing a Damascus blade.

Apples and oranges here.
 
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The truth is that we ARE SNOBS.

Performance doesent matter. Good story, marketing, great LEGEND that comes with brand, knife or steel is most important. We do not want new stuff, untill somebody makes better story/myth with this new product.
 
idaho said:
The truth is that we ARE SNOBS.

Performance doesent matter. Good story, marketing, great LEGEND that comes with brand, knife or steel is most important. We do not want new stuff, untill somebody makes better story/myth with this new product.
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I'm not sure how to take this post. If it's serious, then it's blatantly wrong. If it's joking, I'm not sure what the intended message is.
 
Comeuppance said:
I'm not sure how to take this post. If it's serious, then it's blatantly wrong. If it's joking, I'm not sure what the intended message is.
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It is serious.
In my opionon knives and steels in particular are far from being put to real competitive tests. We choose our prefered brands and steels based on fragments of knowelege AT BEST.
Which can be proven by
a) contradicting test results from different testers.
b) loud denial reaction after failure of favourite steel or knife in any review.
 
Improvement is always great and welcome. Heat treat and how the steel is done is a big deal too. There are certain steels to me that are just reliable and I know many makers have no problem treating them. One of my favorite and dependable is cpm154. Just works, but is not a super steel and I always like to try better steels and get a nice variety.
 
AddictedToGear said:
Improvement is always great and welcome. Heat treat and how the steel is done is a big deal too. There are certain steels to me that are just reliable and I know many makers have no problem treating them. One of my favorite and dependable is cpm154. Just works, but is not a super steel and I always like to try better steels and get a nice variety.
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CPM 154 is a favorite of custom knife makers, it was developed for them so that is no surprise. :)

Very, very good dependable steel with a large variety of uses.
 
Ankerson said:
Actually someone did it with ELMAX if I remember correctly.... ;)

But then the ABS is different in the way they produce the blades and it's geared more toward Damascus and if the layers in the steel are welded together properly. Also deferentially heat treated, hard edge and soft spine :)

Very large difference in how the blades are made and what they are, testing the blade smiths skill of producing a Damascus blade.

Apples and oranges here.
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I would love to see that test on Elmax.

The ABS tests are not focused solely on Damascus and its tests are geared to see if a person can forge and heat treat a knife well.

Any fool can use S90V, but it does not mean he / she heat treated it correctly or the knife will perform well.

Of coarse differential heat treat playes a role but you need to know how to do it and I have yet to see a 'super steel ' with one because it is not done.

All steels is a mix of properties, there is not one steel above all others. It depends what you want.

If ypu want wear resistance get a wear resistant steel such as M390, if you want thoughness get a steel like S7.

If a person believes one steel can do everything they are only BSing themselves. Thats the same as buying a sports car and think you can do a 4x4 coarse with no ill effects.
 
marthinus said:
I would love to see that test on Elmax.

The ABS tests are not focused solely on Damascus and its tests are geared to see if a person can forge and heat treat a knife well.

Any fool can use S90V, but it does not mean he / she heat treated it correctly or the knife will perform well.

Of coarse differential heat treat playes a role but you need to know how to do it and I have yet to see a 'super steel ' with one because it is not done.

All steels is a mix of properties, there is not one steel above all others. It depends what you want.

If ypu want wear resistance get a wear resistant steel such as M390, if you want thoughness get a steel like S7.

If a person believes one steel can do everything they are only BSing themselves. Thats the same as buying a sports car and think you can do a 4x4 coarse with no ill effects.
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I saw it awhile back when it was referenced....

I was just pointing out the differences really.

Big difference in even a 1095 blade done by an ABS Master Smith made in order to pass that test and another one done by a production company was the point I was getting at really.

The blade made by the production company would likely snap on the 1st pry..... ;)
 
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marthinus said:
Show me a 'super steel' that can pass an American Bladesmith Society bend test.......to paraphrase Spyderco 'if the steel is the heart of a blade the heat treat is the soul'.
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Aside from western fillet knives, why exactly do you wanna bend the knife?
HT being the soul is meant (and can only do) to get the best out of the given alloy.
One can bend 1095(with best HT) all day, but in the end it'll never touch 10V(with best HT) performance on abrasive materials as far as actual cutting is concerned :) HT won't make Vanadium appear out of nowhere or any other chemical element for that matter.

marthinus said:
...
Any fool can use S90V, but it does not mean he / she heat treated it correctly or the knife will perform well.
...
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By the same token, any fool using 1095 doesn't mean he/she HTed it correctly. Somehow, whenever we have debates about old and trusty steels vs. new superalloys, the old ones automatically get best possible HT(perhaps because it's simple) and new ones are assumed to have crappy HT. Not a valid comparison at all.
 
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Gator97 said:
Aside from western fillet knives, why exactly do you wanna bend the knife?
HT being the soul is meant (and can only do) to get the best out of the given alloy.
One can bend 1095(with best HT) all day, but in the end it'll never touch 10V(with best HT) performance on abrasive materials as far as actual cutting is concerned :) HT won't make Vanadium appear out of nowhere or any other chemical element for that matter.


By the same token, any fool using 1095 doesn't mean he/she HTed it correctly. Somehow, whenever we have debates about old and trusty steels vs. new superalloys old ones automatically get best possible HT(perhaps because eit's simple) and new ones are assumed to have crappy HT. Not a valid comparison at all.
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They also forget to mention that they won't be taking that very expensive knife made by an ABS Master Smith that they waited years for, putting it in a vice and bending it 90 degrees each way.....

So the whole subject is really mute....... Not to mention that the Master Smith would be pretty upset because the knife will take some damage.....

Although it does seem to come up every time.....
 
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