Bladeforums Supporting Clone Dealer

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Before it’s closed.

This thread is basically an argument between “letter of the law”, and “spirit of the law.” I’ve always been for “spirit of the law.”

I will vote with my wallet too. It’s unfortunate as I really enjoy BF. TM is too much.
 
craytab said:
Put him on ignore. He is trying to derail the thread and get it closed.
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Ignore is a beautiful thing! I don't ignore many but putting a select few in that column has greatly improved the thread read experience. Some folks would argue with a boot.
r8shell said:
There's so much noise to signal going on here.
My question at this point is: Even if they have done nothing to warrant being banned, should they have Bladeforums Supporting Dealer status?

For years, I've seen posts telling new members to check out the list of supporting dealers when they ask where is the best/most honest/reliable, etc place? That led me to infer some sort of vetting or endorsement, rather than just having paid for the membership level.

I don't think I'm the only one who has been under this impression.
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This has been exactly my concern. I've always been under the impression that supporting dealers were afforded preference over non-supporting dealers. This is particularly concerning when you look at the skinny Paid Dealer Member List (https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/paid-dealer-members-list-updated-10-13-2020.1089879/)

There are a lot of great dealers WHO aren't on that list...No KnivesShipFree, Knifeworks, GoingGear, Cranes Cutlery, House of Blades or BladeHQ.

It's also a little sickening to think that as a Paid Dealer Member, we should refer folks to Topomart ahead of sending someone to KSF. We can't direct someone to Knifeworks to score a sweet, new Hogue Ritter but we can send them to Topomart to pick up a cloned Grip.

I'm not really sure what the Paid Dealer List means anymore.
 
To be frank, being on the paid dealers list loses a lot of value if a place like Topomart is listed the at the same level of legitimacy as Dealers like us and most of the other paid dealers here who do things right and stock legitimate product on hand vs clones and junk straight out of China.
 
Roy Batty said:
I agree you vote with your wallet, but I don’t agree with the THREAT of the wallet. Trying to rally friends to all join in saying “if you don’t do what I want, I’m taking my ball and going home!”
Seriously? You’d leave a forum that many people had been members of for years, some over a decade or more, all over one dealer likely to be banned anyway if they break the rules? To each their own, but it sounds like drama and empty threats to try and bully the owner into complying. I’m not buying it.
I seriously think everyone is overreacting, and they’re all feeding off each other and it’s fueling more anger. This seems like a small issue to get so worked up over. If clones are put up for sale, every concern would be addressed.
So what’s the problem? People aren’t happy to get someone banned at the snap of their fingers?
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Personally - I have made a lot of friends here, I've developed relationships with a lot of makers, and established great rapport with a couple of supporting dealers. I would be extremely hard pressed to leave this place and as I just re-upped my membership a couple of weeks ago, the point is moot anyway.

That said, I don't understand why the threat of the wallet is a sticking point - it is one of the most common means of protest. If you don't like something, then you threaten to spend your money elsewhere - if the threat doesn't work, then you follow through with it. Whether or not that has a meaningful impact on a business becomes somewhat irrelevant when it comes to one's principles. For so many, the subject of clones is no small potatoes - it is a legitimate issue and having our forum appear to ally itself with a dealer that sells clones is a big deal (and not just a clone here and there - clones make up a substantial portion of their inventory).

I have never sought the banning of someone simply because I dislike them. Aside from the dealership fee, Topomart has no investment in the community here and they aren't welcome. They aren't a member with contributions (good or bad) to establish who they are as a person - all that is seen is that their catalog is heavily proliferated by clones. What I would like to see is a vetting process for potential supporting dealers - and if there already is one, I'd like to know what said process is. We are discriminating enthusiasts, I think we have every right to scrutinize those that BladeForums is willing to associate itself with (namely dealers and makers).

As has been said, the problem may very well resolve itself but it doesn't mean that it doesn't stink something fierce in the meantime - especially since we are left to speculate with regards to the reasoning behind their presence.
 
I'm suggesting things are a mess and high-level members are banned to prevent them from their freedom of opinion and prevent them from making sales. I'm saying this is done out of bias, not policy. Please don't twist my words that way, i see that's very common, too. twist what i say and tattle. All of these things scare away good members and reduice the reputation of the forums which none of us want, mods included. It needs to change. I've had to tell mods here straight-up to stop harassing me before, and eventually they did, but not without a lot of very nasty messages and nastier fowl play
 
and again, i don't think the mods are taking things personally, obviously Spark is looking for feedback here, he stated he would be looking into this issue
 
r8shell said:
My question at this point is: Even if they have done nothing to warrant being banned, should they have Bladeforums Supporting Dealer status?
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You're right to question whether or not being a "supporting dealer" status means something. I've had the opposite assumption as you did. I've always assumed that supporting dealers are people who pay for the right to advertise and discuss their business. That being said, I'm not sure how it's possible for a knife dealer to discuss their business when a forum rule seems to indicate that's not acceptable.

Ethics can be subjective, and certainty extends beyond the question at hand; it includes all sorts of subjects that would be impossible to untangle; racial/class bias, treatment of workers, working conditions for materials providers... we could quickly become paralyzed by weighing the negatives. Instead, I'd try for a "legalistic" argument. here is the argument I would make:

The forum rules should be elaborated to include prohibition of anything that might be illegal. This is just good sense, as the forums naturally would probably like to avoid any association with a crime. Consider this ridiculous but hopefully poignant example:
  • Someone who posts a picture of their dead wife and how they did it is definitely discussing something illegal.
  • Someone who makes a thread "what's the best way to get away with murder?" is discussing something which might be illegal
  • Someone who asks, "Could a tomahawk kill someone?" probably isn't discussing something illegal.
Here, it's arguably just as bad to have a fringe case of illegality on the books. Similarly, for the forums we could have three tiers:
  • Illegal: posting of a knife on the blade forums exchanges which have been proven to infringe on United States IP protections.
  • probably Illegal: posting an URL which leads to a website that also features 1 or more knives which probably infringe on IP protections, since the knives being copied have IP protections in place.
  • Not Illegal: making a homemade clone of knife for personal use.
It's far too much effort to figure out if legal actions have determined that a product in China has infringed on American IP protections. We couldn't possibly expect Sparks or the Staff to figure out these legal issues. Instead we can say that a person could reasonably conclude there is an IP infringement, thus the forums should distance themselves from that operation.

Then, if I was Sparks, I would refund the dealer their money (benefit of the doubt), and explain that further examination of their wares reveals legally questionable items, which is not something Blade Forums wants to be associated with.
 
Vetr said:
I'm suggesting things are a mess and high-level members are banned to prevent them from their freedom of opinion and prevent them from making sales. I'm saying this is done out of bias, not policy. Please don't twist my words that way, i see that's very common, too. twist what i say and tattle. All of these things scare away good members and reduice the reputation of the forums which none of us want, mods included. It needs to change. I've had to tell mods here straight-up to stop harassing me before, and eventually they did, but not without a lot of very nasty messages and nastier fowl play
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Vetr said:
and again, i don't think the mods are taking things personally, obviously Spark is looking for feedback here, he stated he would be looking into this issue
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You have only been here a handful of months. If you are tangling with the mods already and so regularly in such a short time - you are doing something wrong.
 
Pàdruig said:
You have only been here a handful of months. If you are tangling with the mods already and so regularly in such a short time - you are doing something wrong.
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You don't knoiw how long i've been here, you only know how long this account has been active. I didn't 'tangle' with anyone, i was being picked at and i put a stop to it.
 
Pàdruig said:
You have only been here a handful of months. If you are tangling with the mods already and so regularly in such a short time - you are doing something wrong.
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aand once again, you have no right to say anything like that.
 
Vetr said:
You don't knoiw how long i've been here, you only know how long this account has been active. I didn't 'tangle' with anyone, i was being picked at and i put a stop to it.
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Honestly, you made the point I was not-so-subtly trying to make for me. Apologies for your troubles - hopefully you find this place more to your liking with this current reincarnation.
 
Pàdruig said:
Honestly, you made the point I was not-so-subtly trying to make for me. Apologies for your troubles - hopefully you find this place more to your liking with this current reincarnation.
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I certainly hope to see less bias and assumption here and it wouldn't hurt anyone to be more polite to new members. Especially those of us who pay for membership as well as contribute and try to follow the rules.
 
I will NEVER purchase anything from topomart (just in case they're reading this) or from anyone else promoting products that represent theft of American intellectual property.
 
Vetr said:
I'm suggesting things are a mess and high-level members are banned to prevent them from their freedom of opinion and prevent them from making sales. I'm saying this is done out of bias, not policy. Please don't twist my words that way, i see that's very common, too. twist what i say and tattle. All of these things scare away good members and reduice the reputation of the forums which none of us want, mods included. It needs to change. I've had to tell mods here straight-up to stop harassing me before, and eventually they did, but not without a lot of very nasty messages and nastier fowl play
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Mods harrass you for no reason and they ban members to make more money? Yeah. OK. You level these serious, completely unsubstantiated charges yet you are begging folks to be nicer to one another?
 
Vetr said:
aand once again, you have no right to say anything like that.
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Actually he does. You are pot stirring from a throwaway account and have no credibility. You speak down to a respected member as though you are in a position of authority and it is annoying. All we know about you is you were previously banned, which honestly isn't very easy on this site, as evidenced by the fact that some of the people posting on this very page have somehow managed to not be banned. So yeah, he has the right to say that and he wasn't the only one thinking it, and he put it mildly as far as I'm concerned.
 
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