Blocking a Katana with a Katana

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Brian6244

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Not sure if this belongs in the sword forum or the tactics forum but since this is where the sword experts are I’m going to go with this one. I have recently learned that in fighting with Katanas in the Japanese style, blocking an attack from a sword with your own sword is strongly discouraged. I find this quite interesting since it is contrary to what you see coming out of Hollywood and in most sword fighting 'training' materials (at least the ones I can find).

I am very interested in reading about to true techniques used to avoid attack from a sword while in involved in a sword fight in the Japanese style. I am not a practitioner (obviously :) )... just a history buff. I am just interested in reading about how it was truly done. Can anyone guide me to such information on the web? My Google searches have turned up nothing but "Hollywood style" techniques.
 
The edge on a katana and most swords is hard, so it holds a good edge. It will chip, and dull with impact of another blade. THe ideal way is simply to cut them down before they can make a cut. If necessary, the flat or back of the blade is supposed to be used. This is what happens when you block edge-to-edge. http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45684

Hollywood is not real, and it is annoying that they reinforce preconceptions like this.
 
What OodlesOfNoodles said. If your life depends on your sword, you don't go f**king up the cutting edge.

If blocking is unavoidable, they teach that you block with the flat on the bottom third of the blade, since that is the least likely to be used for an offensive strike. You can see this on bamboo practice swords, where pieces of string section off the area for blocking and striking.

Swordfighting in Hollywood is like the gunplay. Strictly for entertainment purposes only.
 
I have just started my Kendo lessons....
But Im not actually taking real "Kendo"...Im not just learning the Kendo ways to hit the head and arm and chest...

I asked my teacher that as we are just doing One-on-one lessons, that he teach me how to really fight with a sword,,,,,No rules,...just how to fight and kill with the sword...

What we have been learning first is how to block,,,,Now blocking is not really much part of the sport of Kendo,,,You dont get points for a real good block so why do it?...

But in real life, it does not matter how great a cut you made on the other guy if you lost an arm doing it...

The way Im learning how to block is with the back and sides of the blade,,,I have to learn how to use the back and sides to turn the block into a way to attack or a way to run away....

Im also learning how to grab the other guys sword with my free hand and give a death blow....

cutting edge to cutting edge is not the best,,,but in a real fight it would seem to me that haveing my cutting edge dented is still better than haveing me get cut....
 
Ah so the sides and back of the blade are used.. and more specifically the sides and back on the 1/3 closet to the hands. This makes a lot of sense. Thanks! I new I came to the right place to ask this question. :)
 
European swords are tempered differently. They're usually hard all over. They, suppposedly, parry with the sides. Jap swords have a very soft back. If you block with the back, the sword will be cut into, and likely destroyed. From my recollection, Jap swords are used to block with the edge. When it comes down to a survival situation, anything goes. If you don't have time to block with the sides, then use the front. A nicked up sword is better than getting cut up. But ask on Netsword or swordforum.
Not that this stuff happens in real life. After reading the busse and HI forums, seems like knives are much more durable than swords.
 
One way I was taught is that you were supposed to turn the blade just enough that the opposing blades edge would hit at about the same angle as the grind on yours. That way, the other sword is stricking the largest surface area possible to spread out the force of impact.

Of course, you also don't block straight into your opponent's arc, but at an angle to that, too. Either you move your sword in an arc or position it in some way that the opposing sword slides off some other direction (redirecting your opponent's strike and energy where you want it to go instead of where he wants it to go), or you slap your opponent's strike instead of simply holding your side in the way of his strike.

A friend once demonstrated this for me. He had me take a swing at him, and then he put his in the way and held it there. Then he had me do the same swing, but this time he moved his blade to strike mine in mid-swing for just an instant and then return to the previous stance, and it completely confounded the energy and direction of my strike.

In essence, instead of letting your sword take the full force of the blow as a shield, you deflect or redirect your opponent's strike in the first place.
 
I believe I read on swordforums that blocking is done with the back and edge. the blocking move is a deflecting move, not a full on contact...
 
In kendo (which I know is not real sword fighting but is derived from...) we block with the top or side of the blade by thrusting the sword forward at the attacker's face so they both have to check their advance and can't swing down
 
You can read about this basically anywhere.

Also remember that people back in the day were not always going to do something their "ideal training" called for. People are human just like you and me. We tend to have this conception that people in the past were always highly trained and archaeological evidence somehow indicates an "ideal" methodology. I don't really agree with either.

Swords contacted edge-edge. I'm sure some people back then considered it a good tactic just like some people do today in theory. I would say it was more sensical to protect the most effective part of the sword and using it for cutting or hitting things where the user thinks will make a difference.

You are in harm's way, you'll do what you can to survive. A sword is a damn handy tool to have in such circumstances, and using the most fragile part to defend seems less than ideal. I'm sure it happened a lot. It can save your life on a battlefield. It even makes sense if you need to do a full-stop block for some reason...blocking with the edge, the spine rather than the edge will be facing you (and your hand which will likely try to brace it). I just would not do this if I had the choice.

Cutting into the BACK of a non-static (i.e. not held in a vise) sword happened (look at old swords, it's not that uncommon), but the cuts are shallow and while they can make your noto a pain in the butt, they are not going to give the sword the structural weaknesses that a chipped edge will. Just because the spine is soft does not suddenly make it easy to shear through for another sword.
 
I would think the best defense of a sword (other than your shotgun of course) would be an aluminum baseball bat?
 
Morpeus said:
I would think the best defense of a sword (other than your shotgun of course) would be an aluminum baseball bat?
Click to expand...
I think the original question was referring to sword-on-sword fighting, but if somone were attacking you with one, I'd say that the best defense depends on what you're trained and familiar with.

Also keep in mind that in terms of weapon X vs. weapon Y, baseball bats are better for impact and don't have an edge to lose, but they are less wieldy than a katana (due to their being more forward-heavy).
 
Longswords (like katanas), as I understand it, were primarily designed and used for cutting up peasents with clubs and gardening implements. So no, I'd rather not use a club to try to kill a guy with a sword, unless I'm hitting him on the head while he's not looking. ;)
 
goofing around this weekend with my younger brother....showing him my two finished swords.....we just pretended to hit blades just to show off a little,,,,

It was just harmless fun before we put the swords back out of reach of the kids....But just for a tiny moment we did hit blades edge to edge....

there was damage to both blades,,,,

It would appear that the harden edge is under a lot of strain and its like a drum head pulled tight,,,,small tiny easy done nicks to the sharpened edge can cause damage....
 
First, that SFI link (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45684) if anyone actually read it, is from a movie and those were VERY cheap ass swords, soft steel. Actual edge on edge damage would be more akin to what DaQuo'tah describes above - small chips, scratches, and nicks - if the sword is done properly. Ideally speaking of course, you don't contact your opponent's blade at all, either your sword or yourself.

Kendo's thrust to the face to prevent downward strikes and parrying thrusts works to an extent, but often, there isn't the same type of footwork as would be required traditionally to survive. Watch kendo tournaments, a good deal of the time hits are done at almost the same time and there is very little avoidance - for good reason, the shinai are quite light and with even a simple wrist flick you can hit them (albeit not necessarily with the edge -at which point I think it doesn't count). Getting offline of cuts and thrusts while thrusting and slashing back works well, but the timing and angle are crucial along with the footwork and positioning. You can confound the energy and power in the strike this way, resulting in minimal damage to one's sword and of course good position for counterattacking. LyonHaert's post is pretty much on the dot.

There should be no hard blocks at all. With proper use of distance you should be able to deflect blows or even stop the blows before they reach their max speed (unlikely). I quite agree with Robert Marotz's post. Soft isn't THAT soft, somewhere between 35-40 RC isn't bad. Sure noto would be tough and not so pretty, but I really doubt it'd notch that badly or even at all UNLESS you did a hard block.

As to Euro swords, I have no experience with them, but from the reading on SFI, I'd say that they were generally through-hardened, many longswords had relatively unsharpened "fortes", which were the first distal third of the blade or ricassos, and edge on edge blocking here is an excellent idea - good leverage, none/minimal damage, and your edge(s) is/are perfectly aligned for a single time counter attack.
 
I dont know if I have writen about my Kendo class here yet or not, but now seems a good tme.

I take Kendo lessons and my teacher tells me all the time that although Kendo is based on Japanese sword fighting ideas, in truth the way you strike in Kendo is not really going to be the way you would stike in a real sword fight.

What I mean is; that in kendo being first to hit the other guy's target is fine. This means that if the other guy hits you in the head a 10th of a second after you hit him in the head that this is ok.

In real life it would not be much good at all to be first to hit a guy in the head if a second later he hits you in the head too.
( Showing up in Heaven a second after the other guy shows up in Heaven is not really "winning" a sword fight)

UPDATE:....The damage to both swords from a slight "TING" when we bumped them edge to edge is painfull to now see in good light. They now both have little cracks that go up the side of the blade about 1/8 inch then cut sideways about 1/8 inch.

The lines of clay I lay down in a criss-cross pattern along the cutting edge did their job and stopped the crack. However I see now why Japanese swords are treated with such careful kindness by the Japanese. There must be a huge amount of stress right along the cutting edge that with the slightest 'TING" can produce sword damage

Now I would NEVER try to say that what just happend to my own swords that I made is normal for the great hand-made swords found in japanese history. But I list it here as just a "Heads-up" to what could happen to your sword too if you are not carefull...Results may be different for everyone elses sword,,But still,,,Be carefull because its painfull to screw up a sword like this .
 
It sounds like your edges were too brittle - how did you heat treat these blades? The sort of light impact you described should NOT create what would be considered a fatal flaw in your sword. Do you have pictures?
 
knife saber...I have no doubt your comments are true,,,however ...it's a LONG story, and would take over the topic...LOL

I just thought I should list it here for your information of what "could " happen,,,so that if a guy owns a Katana, and wants to 'try it out" and do some cutting with it, that he knows that while hitting edge to edge "should " not cause a crack, it has done that to some blades....so, be carefull

The last thing you want is to crack a Katana fooling around with your brother....trust me on that one...
 
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