Body armor for sword sparring

Mecha

Titanium Bladesmith
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Dec 27, 2013
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Hi sword folks,

Leather construction droid Øye and I are devilishly scheming up a secret design for body armor suitable for sparring with a sword (or other non-firearm weapon).

It looks like most body armor out there for sparring is either basic fencing stuff, or pretty much motorcycle armor crossed with plastic riot control gear. :barf:

I'd like to hear insights or experiences anyone has about sword sparring armor! :)

Thanks~
 
Look at Kendo gear :)

HA, why didn't I look at that yet! The kendo gear looks like the best, or most robust stuff out there. Pretty inexpensive, as well.

The historical examples I've been studying and most drawn to are Moro and Japanese chainmail armor, which both incorporate lamellar and metal plates into their designs. There seems to be many, many more patterns of chainmail from Japan than anywhere else. Øye's armor should be nearly impenetrable by even a sharp sword or knife.

Moro armor:

2Hr60C5.jpg


The Japanese stuff is too crazy and varied to even bother posting a photo.
 
A steel Cuirass (~7pounds) is what one of my ancestors used in the Prussian army around 1790. I wish I'd have inherited one. The real ones cost a few thousand and the cheaper copies seem to be too thin against real blades though training may be fine?

Will you be sparring with Kendo training swords or maybe metal which might snap and become unexpectedly stabby? :-o

Stiff leather can distribute a blow I'm sure and with a gamberson underneath should do quite well. I've my doubts it'll last against sharp points.

I've similar doubts regarding tightly woven fencing jackets (350N) even with some plastic(?) sheet chest armor underneath.
 
[video=youtube;5gPrBbXykwM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gPrBbXykwM[/video][video=youtube;5HCyNYKhi-4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HCyNYKhi-4[/video][video=youtube;gHElz7StCJM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHElz7StCJM[/video]
 
Just saw the last video and I know he said something about the effectiveness in a few different video. I don't remember the details but I think he wasn't particular fond of it.

Couldn't see the first two videos which might actually have an answer to my question, so please forgive me in this case.

I'm a novice in sword fighting and my engineering didn't cover any weapons or armor thus please take my thoughts with a ton of salt.

I see the point of chain mail with reinforced vital areas since its lighter than a full on steel shell. I also see a point of smaller segments to allow them to move against each other for mobility.
What I don't get at all is small segments in vital areas which not only don't overlap but also leave spaces in between them. Is that some medieval kind of Russian roulette? Luckily the segments have a folded over rim which would slow down a point from sliding along the metal segment right into the more vulnerable mail only areas but still it seems rather silly to me and thats while I'm normally partial to many historical Indian designs.
I'm trying to come up with reasons but fail except that the space between the segments could allow for better airflow which might be critical when fighting in warmer climates.

Who can enlighten me as to the purpose of this kind of design? Thank you!
 
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From what I understand, European style
gambeson- cotton or linen, thick felt, cotton or linen undershirt
chainmail hauberk
& for those who couldn't afford full plate, coat of plates (brigandine armour) steel plates sandwiched between & riveted to leather.
If a blade gets between the plates, its fairly well stopped by the chainmail & felt.
Oops i just realised that didn't really answer your question, but we're getting there slowly
real coat-of-plates replica, right angled
leather-coat-of-plates-8.gif

altho this fool lacks chainmail
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=c...hXCn5QKHctRBNYQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=hiqJ1-DFcAGeOM:
Game of thrones diagonal coat of plates
Eddard-Stark-Baelor-1-09-lord-eddard-ned-stark-30121109-1280-720.jpg

with added plate
5f4bf298e5a387c1ca8768eb9d927d8c.jpg

1st 2 vids have the answers- lindybeige moghul armour youtube
 
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I'v come in mid Chat so hopefully im not to off-based. Polar Bear Forge, Jamie sells armor kits for realistic knight combat http://www.polarbearforge.com/armour.html. Also, look into Armored Combat League http://www.aclknights.com/. They also have info about realistic sword/armor combat training. It's been several years since I researched this and have discarded all my research, but at least here is a start. Plus, their are blacksmith sites I had come across that made combat armor for sword training, you might do a google search for it.

Good luck,
Paul
 
I like Roman army training- full armour & wooden swords 2x weight of steel swords. Thrusts allowed & recommended.
Modern medieval combat's unrealistic- no thrusts allowed.
 
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Thanks for the good links, Pavlos. The machine-made armor plate kits are quite interesting.

Gadunz, the gambezon design is some serious business. That's a lot of protection in a simple piece, just because of the sheer square footage alone. Totally doable.

Jenz, I'm going to guess that it could be that the majority of the fighting where that type of armor was used, was with slashing sabres and not thrusting weapons. Hmmmm. :confused:

The lorica segmentata is another great design.

Not to spill too many beans, but the construction of the armored layers has already been brainstormed by me n' Øye, and will be tested thoroughly (yes it will incorporate the titanium! :D) The historical and current designs and shapes for armor are endless, and any useful or interesting detail could be incorporated into the first models.
 
To clarify
gambeson, felt covered in cotton
BrownGambeson.jpg


covered by mail hauberk
gambeson_gambesons_2.jpg


covered by coat-of-plates/brigandine for those who can't afford full plate
plates_hardened_type_2_3.jpg

coat-of-plates02.jpg
 
I see the point of chain mail with reinforced vital areas since its lighter than a full on steel shell. I also see a point of smaller segments to allow them to move against each other for mobility.
What I don't get at all is small segments in vital areas which not only don't overlap but also leave spaces in between them.
[...]
Who can enlighten me as to the purpose of this kind of design? Thank you!

Small mobile plates are more arrow-resistant for a given thickness than large plates. If an arrow hits a small plate, the small plate moves with the impact. This reduces the energy available for the arrow to pierce the plate. A large plate will move less, and the arrow will have more energy available to penetrate the plate. So an armour of small mobile plates can use thinner plates, and therefore be lighter, while being just as protective against arrows. Arrows are one of the most dangerous things on the pre-gunpowder battlefield. Generally, if your armour keeps arrows out, your armour will keep swords out too.

Don't underestimate mail. A lot of plate-and-mail armour has quite robust mail, which might be just as strong as the plates.
 
Alternate 3rd layer, semi-flexible, preserved rawhide/leather cuirass, maybe with shaped metal plates rivetted inside it. Use your imagination.
BTS-5040.jpg

[video=youtube;lxkb-a0f9Wc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxkb-a0f9Wc[/video]
Before, during & after segmentata, the Romans used mail, as did their enemies.
Armor for beginners
http://www.mercwars.com/armtype.shtml
 
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Interesting timing... I'm right in the middle of an armor project myself.....

Being of limited means, what I've chosen to do is use a Leaf Chain, cut the heads off the rivets and separate it into separate links.... use mild steel rivets to reattach it to a base layer made from leather welding aprons.... on the back I use a small washer to keep the rivet from pulling thru the leather.... it's kinda hard to explain but look at these images and I think you'll get to smelling what I'm selling....

The leaf chain links are figure 8 shaped so you can offset them... the bulbs of the second row fit in the gaps of the first row and give you almost ideal coverage.... trial and error has taught me to leave a space the thickness of the steel plates between the plates themselves so the armor can bend without binding.... I'm using a leaf chain that has 2 inches of space between rivets and covers a total area 2.5 inches tall by 1.5 inch wide each..... its officially a 1646 chain, 16 is a measure in 8ths so 16 = 2 inches between rivet holes 46 means it has 4 inner and 6 outter links, so I get 10 individual links per rivet cut.... I just grind em down with my angle grinder and tap em out with a nail set.

it SHOULD be as good as any to stop live blades, and with padding underneath will damn sure stop training blades...

anywho.... this is the style chain I'm using



and the welding aprons look something like this, with the pockets removed..... I used 2, and sewed them together to add the correct coverage across the shoulders and arms... sewing was done with leather boot laces and a really big needle after punching the correct holes. Slit between legs and stop about 6 inches below crotch, it hangs 2 inches above the knee....the second one covers back, shoulders and arms .....I have a smaller link chain to use on the arms and to trim out around the edges..... I'll post pics once I get it a bit closer to done.



I'll have about 200.00 in the project once I get it done, but for the quality of armor it's going to end up being, I don't think I could buy anything close to that for that amount....besides I like fiddleing with stuff like this.... and with the overlapping figure 8 shape leaving no straight gap more than perhaps 1/8th inch, I honestly don't think you'd be able to get an arrow thru it even if you hit it on a leather spot between the plates because of the way the seam lines ripple.... maybe an ice pick, but no sword axe arrow or dagger/knife I've ever seen will penetrate it.

Had it not added so much weight, I was originally going to use a chest and back plate made from a thick 55 gallon plastic drum.... I've seen em trace out your body shape on it, cut it out with a jig saw.... build a form about 2ft by 3ft, lay down a layer of playground sand which you can get at any home improvement store for about 2.00 a bag.... lay down in the sand to create an impression of your chest.....lay the plastic over the form and hit it with a heat gun till it sags into the form and takes on your rough body shape.... use the rivets to attach the steel plates to the plastic backer....add padding inside and cover that with heavy cloth....hinge it at the shoulders like an old Roman Breastplate with a garage sale leather belt and cinch it tight about the waist with leather straps ( dog collars ) on each side and you are in business.... ridged, good protection verse cut slash or pierce....I may yet make another headed that route.... but I wanted to do this one first just to see how it all came together.....
 
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Ask Mecha to make those out of titanium instead of steel . That would save much of the weight !!
 
Nice idea with the chain links, Hawgsnawt. The chain-link plates will overlap like scales?

Mete hell no! :D
 
No, not like you are thinking.... though I guess you COULD overlap em, but you would loose ALOT of the flexibility and thus wearability of the armor.... what I was talking about them linking together to cover gaps I think can be seen on this stock photo of a pile of used chain..... folded over on itself you can see how the figure 8 shaped scales line up. Granted this is not a perfect photo of what I mean, but its the best one I could find on the interwebz in under 3 minutes LOL.....

Running these straight up and down and offsetting each next row to center the gaps.... you end up with near perfect coverage and its still will still flex and move with you NP....

 
No, not like you are thinking.... though I guess you COULD overlap em, but you would loose ALOT of the flexibility and thus wearability of the armor.... what I was talking about them linking together to cover gaps I think can be seen on this stock photo of a pile of used chain..... folded over on itself you can see how the figure 8 shaped scales line up. Granted this is not a perfect photo of what I mean, but its the best one I could find on the interwebz in under 3 minutes LOL.....

Running these straight up and down and offsetting each next row to center the gaps.... you end up with near perfect coverage and its still will still flex and move with you NP....


How much weight to cover a torso in such a manner ;)

Cereally:p
 
Is it going to be only 1 link thick, Hawgsnawt?
 
Is it going to be only 1 link thick, Hawgsnawt?
I think so but since the rows don't meet in a straight line and are wavy an comparable wide arrow head can't creep through. An even longer straight edge would have trouble as well. Maybe a bolt could if it hits in the right spot.
 
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