Boker 440C STAINLESS STEEL

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csabacanada

csabacanada

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Hi,guys.I was wondering if anyone had experience with 440C STAINLESS,ESPECIALLY BOKER 440C.I am a carbon steel guy and I have had knives in BG42,S30V,VG10,CPM154 BUT NEVER IN 440C and I know nothing about this steel.Boker has a few very nice fixed blades in 440C and I am really considering buying them.Any input would be appreciated .Thanks,guys.
 
It's a good basic stainless knife steel.But the others you mention are all better so why go to 440C. BTW 154CM is 440C with MO added.
 
Because the Boker knives are made of 440C.IF THEY WERE MADE OF THE NEWER SS I WOULD HAVE ALREADY BOUGHT THEM ,BUT THEY ONLY USE 440C IN THEIR FIXED BLADE KNIVES AND I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT 440C .ALL THE BEST
 
440C is still good steel. Most allloys with 1% or better are. It is a definite step above AUS8 in edge retention, but is is a definite step below BG42 and S30V.

The only thing I might watch with the Boker is that I believe some of their knives are made in mainland China. Most of the time "440C" steel in knives made in mainland China is not really 440C.
 
China 440c is 9Cr18MoV, which isn't a bad steel eather.

Most of their traditional knives and ones that cost more then $100 are actual 440c and are made in germany.
 
macgregor22 said:
China 440c is 9Cr18MoV, which isn't a bad steel eather.

Most of their traditional knives and ones that cost more then $100 are actual 440c and are made in germany.
Click to expand...

True (Although I think you mean 9Cr13MoV), but its edge retention is still a step below that of true 440C.

Edge retention assuming equal hardness:
AUS8 = 8Cr13MoV < 9Cr13MoV < 440C
 
knarfeng said:
True (Although I think you mean 9Cr13MoV), but its edge retention is still a step below that of true 440C.

Edge retention assuming equal hardness:
AUS8 = 8Cr13MoV < 9Cr13MoV < 440C
Click to expand...

Hi Knarfeng,
The chinese have tons of differnt grades with similar names. In this case I actually think that he was right though. 440C is a standard that requires 1% carbon (plus minus like 0.15%) and 17% Chrome (+- a couple of percent). So the grade you talk about, 8Cr13MoV, would be a 0.8% carbon and 13%chrome (nominal values) which is different from 440C but 9Cr18Mov with 0.9% Carbon and 18% Chrome would be inside the spec for 440C.

//Jerker
 
440C is good steel. For a long time, it was the top stainless steel. For several years, there's been better and better steels introduced, so it's no longer at the top of the heap. But that doesn't mean it's suddenly crap.

However, when there's knives with better steel for the same price...
 
Razorsharp244 said:
Hi Knarfeng,
The chinese have tons of differnt grades with similar names. In this case I actually think that he was right though. 440C is a standard that requires 1% carbon (plus minus like 0.15%) and 17% Chrome (+- a couple of percent). So the grade you talk about, 8Cr13MoV, would be a 0.8% carbon and 13%chrome (nominal values) which is different from 440C but 9Cr18Mov with 0.9% Carbon and 18% Chrome would be inside the spec for 440C.

//Jerker
Click to expand...

(I was referencing 9Cr13MoV)

The following comments refer to both 9Cr13MoV and 9Cr18MoV. Neither matches either the composition or the performance of 440C.

Well, I looked at the Carpenter Steel web site and your numbers do not agree with theirs.
http://www.cartech.com/common/frame...ftn=our_products&lefto=nav_tlo&lefti=nav_tlo2

Ato Z of materials lists the same as Carpenter:
http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1024

I would guess that the spec for 9CrMoV carbon content would be 0.85-0.95 giving a nominal content of 0.9%. Carpenter Steel lists the carbon content of 440C as 0.95% to 1.2%, making the nominal carbon content for 440C 1.075% which is significantly above 0.9%. The best you could say is that 9Cr13MoV overlaps the lowest part of the 440C spec for carbon content.

As a materials engineer, I would not look at those compositions and call them equivalent.

As a knife user, I've done side by side edge retention testing of of 9Cr13MoV and 440C cutting manila rope. The 440C was significantly better.

Regards,
Frank R
 
Well, as a material engineer I would look at chrome also. That was the main point of my whole thread, not carbon.

I have spent months in China visiting knifemakers using 3Cr13, 4Cr13, 5Cr15Mo, 8Cr13Mo, 8Cr13MoV, 8Cr18Mo, 9Cr18MoV etc etc. I have investigated several of them and they are sometimes so way off their nominal values that it makes no sense making a difference between for instance 8Cr18Mo and 9Cr18MoV. The names are composition names but their specs are generally very wide. +- 2% for chrome is not at all unusual, or +-0.15% carbon. This means that, for instance that:

0.85% C and 20% chrome is the same grade 1.15% C and 16% Chrome. Are they exactly the same? No? but the specs are, as I said, wide.

If you believe for a second that they can make something with 1.075% carbon (+-0.0005% if you are an engineer you know that with four numbers the tolerance would be set by the fifth) then you are wrong. It cant be done outside of lab scale anywhere in the world and the chinese are not exactly at the cutting edge in this industry.

Even the best made 440C has a spec that states carbon 0.95-1.2 % and Chrome 16-18%. (Source www.efunda.com and search 440C). I stated from memory: 1% carbon (plus minus like 0.15%) and 17% Chrome (+- a couple of percent). I wasn't too far off. And the chinese usually dont even call their steels by standards like 420 and 440C. My guess is that it's because they are struggling to stay inside the spec. If they actually call it by a standard it would probably mean that they are among the top producers there (quality wise).

Your quote:
"I would guess that the spec for 9CrMoV carbon content would be 0.85-0.95 giving a nominal content of 0.9%."

You assume tighter tolerances for chinese made 9Cr18MoV than Carpenters US Made 440C? Only half the span? Gimme a break.
//Jerker
 
Razorsharp244 said:
Well, as a material engineer I would look at chrome also. That was the main point of my whole thread, not carbon.

I have spent months in China visiting knifemakers using 3Cr13, 4Cr13, 5Cr15Mo, 8Cr13Mo, 8Cr13MoV, 8Cr18Mo, 9Cr18MoV etc etc. I have investigated several of them and they are sometimes so way off their nominal values that it makes no sense making a difference between for instance 8Cr18Mo and 9Cr18MoV. The names are composition names but their specs are generally very wide. +- 2% for chrome is not at all unusual, or +-0.15% carbon. This means that, for instance that:

0.85% C and 20% chrome is the same grade 1.15% C and 16% Chrome. Are they exactly the same? No? but the specs are, as I said, wide.

If you believe for a second that they can make something with 1.075% carbon (+-0.0005% if you are an engineer you know that with four numbers the tolerance would be set by the fifth) then you are wrong. It cant be done outside of lab scale anywhere in the world and the chinese are not exactly at the cutting edge in this industry.

Even the best made 440C has a spec that states carbon 0.95-1.2 % and Chrome 16-18%. (Source www.efunda.com and search 440C). I stated from memory: 1% carbon (plus minus like 0.15%) and 17% Chrome (+- a couple of percent). I wasn't too far off. And the chinese usually dont even call their steels by standards like 420 and 440C. My guess is that it's because they are struggling to stay inside the spec. If they actually call it by a standard it would probably mean that they are among the top producers there (quality wise).

Your quote:
"I would guess that the spec for 9CrMoV carbon content would be 0.85-0.95 giving a nominal content of 0.9%."

You assume tighter tolerances for chinese made 9Cr18MoV than Carpenters US Made 440C? Only half the span? Gimme a break.
//Jerker
Click to expand...


Ach, I was going too fast. You are correct on the tolerance of course. But still, even with a tolerance of ± 0.2% for the Chinese and ±0.15% for 440C, the 9Cr13MoV is at the low half of the 440C spec for carbon content.
alloy__________carbon range
440C________0.95% to 1.2%
9Cr13MoV____0.7% to 1.1%

They still are not equivalent.


I know that the Chinese do not use the term 440C, but my original point was that sometimes you see Chinese-made knives labelled 440C when they aren't really 440C. And the performance of the steel is not the same as 440C. People use these, think that they are using actual 440C, and think that 440C performs like the knife they are using, when actual 440C is better than that.

So, back to my original point. If the Bokers in question are made in mainland China, there is a question as to whether the steel is really 440C or if it is a Chinese steel with somewhat lower properties.

Best,
Frank R
 
knarfeng said:
Ach, I was going too fast. You are correct on the tolerance of course. But still, even with a tolerance of ± 0.2% for the Chinese and ±0.15% for 440C, the 9Cr13MoV is at the low half of the 440C spec for carbon content.
alloy__________carbon range
440C________0.95% to 1.2%
9Cr13MoV____0.7% to 1.1%

They still are not equivalent.


I know that the Chinese do not use the term 440C, but my original point was that sometimes you see Chinese-made knives labelled 440C when they aren't really 440C. And the performance of the steel is not the same as 440C. People use these, think that they are using actual 440C, and think that 440C performs like the knife they are using, when actual 440C is better than that.

So, back to my original point. If the Bokers in question are made in mainland China, there is a question as to whether the steel is really 440C or if it is a Chinese steel with somewhat lower properties.

Best,
Frank R
Click to expand...

Hi again,
I agree completely, with a small comment. The chinese steel is sometimes as good as ours but most of the times not. Lack of consistency is their main problem. With a deeper analysis their purity level is also pretty bad. This is why the EU for instance put demands on an ROHS-certificate for steel components coming out of China. It regulates content of lead, cadmium and mercury. I'n not sure if the US demands ROHS. It's in use in the proffessional knife industry (butcher knives) already, but not for any consumer knives that I know of.

//Jerker
 
What's your application? 440-C is a very good SS and excellent in corrosion resistance.
 
Razorsharp244 said:
Hi again,
I agree completely, with a small comment. The chinese steel is sometimes as good as ours but most of the times not. Lack of consistency is their main problem. With a deeper analysis their purity level is also pretty bad. This is why the EU for instance put demands on an ROHS-certificate for steel components coming out of China. It regulates content of lead, cadmium and mercury. I'n not sure if the US demands ROHS. It's in use in the proffessional knife industry (butcher knives) already, but not for any consumer knives that I know of.

//Jerker
Click to expand...

Your assessment works for me, Jerker.

In answer to your other comment:
My company is starting to import components from China. I am unaware of any such regs for the US. EU is much more demanding of such documentation and is going to become quite demanding once the REACH regulations are in effect in two years. It is my opinion that the costs of compling with REACH will affect prices in EU.
 
I like 440C despite the steel snob in me. It is a "very good" SS steel (category bad-avrg-good-very good-excellent) overall, with highlights in rust resistance. Edge hold is good also. I would not pry or chop heavy stuff with it.

Disclosure: I do own 440c knives including those by BOKER.
 
In answer to your other comment:
My company is starting to import components from China. I am unaware of any such regs for the US. EU is much more demanding of such documentation and is going to become quite demanding once the REACH regulations are in effect in two years. It is my opinion that the costs of compling with REACH will affect prices in EU. [/QUOTE]

Hi Knarfeng,
These kind of things usually start with the food industry and various business where protectionist drive is strong like aerospace and automotive industry for instance. We encountered the ROHS in automotive first. We supply steel to a valve in the A/C in cars.

EU is, as you say, more protectionist than the US. When we sell steel in China the customers will pay +50% from the list price we have in EU and the US. This is due to landing cost, VAT and import duties. It's crazy. I guess the ROHS certificate is a payback action since it forces China to import steel even tough the producers in China are hit hard by import costs.

Funny how politics works.

//Jerker
 
Hi Jerker,
where did you spend months in china visiting knifemakers, i mean the city name?

For 8Cr18MoV, it is similar to 8Cr17MoV, 440B grade.
Yes, in china we definite the steel name by its compositions.
For 440C, 9Cr18, 9Cr18Mo, 9Cr18MoV, they are called 440C.
However, when analyzed the chemical composition, it's a little different from each one.
And this will effect the property of steel.
Good knife is not only about the steel, but also about the heat treatment.



Razorsharp244 said:
Well, as a material engineer I would look at chrome also. That was the main point of my whole thread, not carbon.

I have spent months in China visiting knifemakers using 3Cr13, 4Cr13, 5Cr15Mo, 8Cr13Mo, 8Cr13MoV, 8Cr18Mo, 9Cr18MoV etc etc. I have investigated several of them and they are sometimes so way off their nominal values that it makes no sense making a difference between for instance 8Cr18Mo and 9Cr18MoV. The names are composition names but their specs are generally very wide. +- 2% for chrome is not at all unusual, or +-0.15% carbon. This means that, for instance that:

0.85% C and 20% chrome is the same grade 1.15% C and 16% Chrome. Are they exactly the same? No? but the specs are, as I said, wide.

If you believe for a second that they can make something with 1.075% carbon (+-0.0005% if you are an engineer you know that with four numbers the tolerance would be set by the fifth) then you are wrong. It cant be done outside of lab scale anywhere in the world and the chinese are not exactly at the cutting edge in this industry.

Even the best made 440C has a spec that states carbon 0.95-1.2 % and Chrome 16-18%. (Source www.efunda.com and search 440C). I stated from memory: 1% carbon (plus minus like 0.15%) and 17% Chrome (+- a couple of percent). I wasn't too far off. And the chinese usually dont even call their steels by standards like 420 and 440C. My guess is that it's because they are struggling to stay inside the spec. If they actually call it by a standard it would probably mean that they are among the top producers there (quality wise).

Your quote:
"I would guess that the spec for 9CrMoV carbon content would be 0.85-0.95 giving a nominal content of 0.9%."

You assume tighter tolerances for chinese made 9Cr18MoV than Carpenters US Made 440C? Only half the span? Gimme a break.
//Jerker
Click to expand...
 
440C is great :) The big question always is : Is it really 440c ? U can never be sure if the steel comes from china
 
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