Boker Celebrates 150 Years

paulhilborn · Oct 21, 2019

Campbellclanman said:
Whew! Great Knives, Herder you can bump this Thread anytime with fine old Knives like that!!!! Wow!

A big old Boker ( not that old - as that Great Boker Book tells me its in the pre WW2 era - the Bone is nice The blades are pretty Rugged!

This one here again has very nicely jigged Bone, and is the Block lettering Stamp - so again the book tells me pre WW2, possibly a bit later than the Knife above? Im not too sure on that.

Another Boker - Block Letter stamped E/O Knife- I really like this one..

I spoke with Duncan last night as I noticed the EO he posted. I have one with very similar traits, same bone, same blade shape, nick and pin placement. The differences are no EO and this one has a shield and has BELKNAP HDW & MFG. CO for it's tang stamp as Boker was one of many that contracted knives for John Primble/Belknap Hardware Store's.

Now where it gets muddy for me is I was under the impression that Boker knives made for Belknap had a star stamped on the back tang? I also remember hearing that there was a tie somehow between Boker and Remington??? So, although I think this is a Boker made knife, I also wonder did Remington make knives for Boker? is Duncan's knife a Remington?

Now, I ask my friend herder, please help me here

Alright, here's my pic's and please pardon the setting as this is what a knife nut does while waiting in line at the drive thru

I found this reference near the back of herders Boker Book referring to dates and shields. So this may narrow it down to being made between 1941-1956? Also the model # is 6748S

Campbellclanman · Oct 21, 2019

The Bone Jig Work is deep enough and beautiful enough to slot into Remington’s Family of Bone but I don’t know and look forward to seeing Herders response on your questions Paul.

I do notice a big difference between your knife and mine Paul and that is that mine is a lot better lol

paulhilborn · Oct 21, 2019

Campbellclanman said:
The Bone Jig Work is deep enough and beautiful enough to slot into Remington’s Family of Bone but I don’t know and look forward to seeing Herders response on your questions Paul.

I do notice a big difference between your knife and mine Paul and that is that mine is a lot better lol

Ha!!! Duncan, now it is however better photographed

I did look at the model number in back of the Boker book and it does list a #6748 (no S) but lists it as a 3 bladed Whittler

herder · Oct 21, 2019

bflying, wonderful picture with some neat items shown, but I especially like the large Boker hunter/trapper model.

r8shell, while that Valley Forge may have originally been a two blade model, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it was offered as a single blade variation.
Enclosed is a very similar Boker two blade Jack from 1914 which should help to give a date for your fine old knife.

Will Power, Great picture and great knife, I love the handles on that model!!!

herder · Oct 22, 2019

paulhilborn said:
I spoke with Duncan last night as I noticed the EO he posted. I have one with very similar traits, same bone, same blade shape, nick and pin placement. The differences are no EO and this one has a shield and has BELKNAP HDW & MFG. CO for it's tang stamp as Boker was one of many that contracted knives for John Primble/Belknap Hardware Store's.

Now where it gets muddy for me is I was under the impression that Boker knives made for Belknap had a star stamped on the back tang? I also remember hearing that there was a tie somehow between Boker and Remington??? So, although I think this is a Boker made knife, I also wonder did Remington make knives for Boker? is Duncan's knife a Remington?

Now, I ask my friend herder, please help me here

Alright, here's my pic's and please pardon the setting as this is what a knife nut does while waiting in line at the drive thru

I found this reference near the back of herders Boker Book referring to dates and shields. So this may narrow it down to being made between 1941-1956? Also the model # is 6748S

Paul, first off, beautiful knife and thanks for showing it!!! It sure looks like a Boker made knife to me.
We didn't really cover much on contract knives that Boker made for other companies partly because we were running out of book space and partly because those waters are pretty "muddy" as you say.
I would be fairly confident in saying though that it is highly doubtful that Remington made any knives for Boker, or to the customers Boker exclusively supplied. The reason being, pretty bad blood between the companies at least from Boker's point of view. When Remington started up in 1919, they took Boker's top cutler/manager (Carl Tillman) and a few other good cutlers away from Boker. Remington also "borrowed" a few knife patterns that were classic Boker/Valley Forge models. So, I'm pretty certain that Boker would have wanted nothing to do with Remington after that. But who knows for sure? Business is still business...

bflying · Oct 22, 2019

herder said:
bflying, wonderful picture with some neat items shown, but I especially like the large Boker hunter/trapper model.

View attachment 1217655

Thank you H herder . And I have to agree with you. That Hunter was the first gift I ever received from my in-laws, that wasn't really a veiled gift actually only for my wife's benefit. It's not an expensive knife, but one of my treasures.

paulhilborn · Oct 22, 2019

herder said:
Paul, first off, beautiful knife and thanks for showing it!!! It sure looks like a Boker made knife to me.
We didn't really cover much on contract knives that Boker made for other companies partly because we were running out of book space and partly because those waters are pretty "muddy" as you say.
I would be fairly confident in saying though that it is highly doubtful that Remington made any knives for Boker, or to the customers Boker exclusively supplied. The reason being, pretty bad blood between the companies at least from Boker's point of view. When Remington started up in 1919, they took Boker's top cutler/manager (Carl Tillman) and a few other good cutlers away from Boker. Remington also "borrowed" a few knife patterns that were classic Boker/Valley Forge models. So, I'm pretty certain that Boker would have wanted nothing to do with Remington after that. But who knows for sure? Business is still business...

That is whats so great about the mystery involving old cutlery companies. I find that very intriguing that there was bad blood between the two companies and yet interesting that cutlers where lured away from Boker. That said, one could see the Boker style/influence in Remington simply because those cutlers carried Boker dna so to speak. I too felt for obvious reasons my knife was of Boker decent due to the extreme likeness to Duncan's yet the bone covers seem so Remington like :thumbsup:

There's a Remington pattern (R163) that is very similar sans the more squared front bolster and long pull vs crescent nail nick to the pattern Duncan and I posted. I then assume the model number is simply that of Belknap vs Boker

Thanks for all your and Ricky Rays passion in bringing the Boker history to the masses :thumbsup:

Also herder would you feel the knife was made between 1941-1956 just due to the shield?

Will Power · Oct 22, 2019

herder said:
bflying, wonderful picture with some neat items shown, but I especially like the large Boker hunter/trapper model.

r8shell, while that Valley Forge may have originally been a two blade model, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it was offered as a single blade variation.
Enclosed is a very similar Boker two blade Jack from 1914 which should help to give a date for your fine old knife.

Will Power, Great picture and great knife, I love the handles on that model!!!

View attachment 1217655

Thanks very much. Thanks too for your scholarship and for the old catalogue picture, that's what it is to be a SPEAR

Regards, Will

r8shell · Oct 22, 2019

herder said:
bflying, wonderful picture with some neat items shown, but I especially like the large Boker hunter/trapper model.

r8shell, while that Valley Forge may have originally been a two blade model, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it was offered as a single blade variation.
Enclosed is a very similar Boker two blade Jack from 1914 which should help to give a date for your fine old knife.

Will Power, Great picture and great knife, I love the handles on that model!!!

View attachment 1217655

Will Power said:
Thanks very much. Thanks too for your scholarship and for the old catalogue picture, that's what it is to be a SPEAR

Regards, Will

Thank you, herder! That catalog picture does give some context to my knife. As Will Power says, your scholarship is greatly appreciated. :thumbsup:

waynorth · Oct 22, 2019

This is either flat out pattern theft or a subcontract situation!!

Phil in Alabama · Oct 22, 2019

Maybe the master cutler that Remington hired away from Boker owned the pattern?

paulhilborn · Oct 22, 2019

waynorth said:
This is either flat out pattern theft or a subcontract situation!!
View attachment 1218070 View attachment 1218071

A definite likeness Charlie

that Boker DNA I mentioned above

waynorth · Oct 22, 2019

Frenemies maybe??

paulhilborn · Oct 22, 2019

waynorth said:
Frenemies maybe??

Ah, me and Duncan

Campbellclanman · Oct 22, 2019

Interesting Comparison there Charlie!

Paul!

paulhilborn · Oct 22, 2019

Campbellclanman said:
Interesting Comparison there Charlie!

Paul!

waynorth · Oct 23, 2019

Phil in Alabama said:
Maybe the master cutler that Remington hired away from Boker owned the pattern?

Will we ever know?

I think Boker still produces that pattern!!

herder · Oct 23, 2019

paulhilborn said:
That is whats so great about the mystery involving old cutlery companies. I find that very intriguing that there was bad blood between the two companies and yet interesting that cutlers where lured away from Boker. That said, one could see the Boker style/influence in Remington simply because those cutlers carried Boker dna so to speak. I too felt for obvious reasons my knife was of Boker decent due to the extreme likeness to Duncan's yet the bone covers seem so Remington like There's a Remington pattern (R163) that is very similar sans the more squared front bolster and long pull vs crescent nail nick to the pattern Duncan and I posted. I then assume the model number is simply that of Belknap vs Boker

Thanks for all your and Ricky Rays passion in bringing the Boker history to the masses

Also herder would you feel the knife was made between 1941-1956 just due to the shield?

It is amazing to read how many early American cutlery companies were formed and folded by family members and friends with both handshakes and backstabbing as continuous themes.

I would guess that that Belknap dates to early post WWII partly based on the shield as you noted. But also, all the Boker tear drop models that I see had long nail pulls prior to WWII.
That knife still has that quality "look" of the pre-war era knives which is also why I think it's a pretty early post-war model.

herder · Oct 23, 2019

waynorth said:
This is either flat out pattern theft or a subcontract situation!!
View attachment 1218070 View attachment 1218071

Great examples, Charlie!!!
Oddly enough, that is one instance where Boker copied Remington. Boker introduced their humpback camper model in 1930, but the Remington model came out about four years earlier.
While Remington didn't invent that type of pattern, (older English and German variations looked a bit different) their model was the one that pretty much everyone else copied.

waynorth · Oct 23, 2019

Thanks for the insight herder!!
Very interesting that Boker copied Remington on those scout/utility type knives!
All part of the struggles between them I guess!
Cutleries are still making Remington patterns, both authorized and not!!