Broadhead

[James Muhlbeier]

Ok so I have been looking and watching the forum for a while now trying to learn about different steels and so on and have learned a ton. I have a couple of designs for broadheads to be shot out of a compound bows at high speeds. It will need to be impact resistant and hold integrity with no edge turning or breaking if bone is struck. It needs good edge retention. And if I can I would like to find something lighter. One of the major flaws in the current designs are due to the need to shed weight as most common broadheads are 100- 125 grains. I would like to be able to maintain longer blades and add thickness if possible. Most 3-4 blade heads are .35 in thickness and 2 blades are .5
I am aware it will have to be machine, cast, or lazer cut due to the small size.

I have looked at what the other broadhead companies at using and it seems like AUS 8 is the most common along with 1095. A2, SV30 and S7 is used on very high end broadheads. Rockwell of 49-59 seems to be the magic stretch of not to brittle for impact but holds and edge.

I am looking at CPM S35VN, CPM 4V, Elmax, CTS-XHP S7..... I have also looked into boron alloyed steel high toughness, wear resitance but all I can find on those for is a hatchet with glowing reviews.


Any thoughts on something others may be overlooking?

 

[Black Oak Bladeworks]

Welcome! I don't see any reason the other steels you mentioned wouldn't work, I am not sure they will be a huge improvement though. I am sure you will still get some chipping and breaking with them as well. I think the reason many broad heads break is not the steel choice, but the amount of stress that is exerted on so small a piece of metal. I am not aware of anything lighter weight that would be as tougher as a traditional broadhead steel. I am sure there are some alloys out there though.

 

[CVamberbonehead]

I dont think youll find anything lighter than a standard broadhead, maybe if it was made of titanium? I have heard of titanium knives, but I dont know anything about them.

 

[W. Anderson]

Cold steel makes some broadheads out of Grivory and performance is reported to be good. Maybe consider using g10?

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

What's the purpose of edge retention on an arrowhead? Are they not being sharpened before each hunt? I'd think resistance to breaking would be a higher priority.

The main way to lose weight is to reduce the amount of metal used, which is why pretty much everyone has cutouts in their blades. Smaller blades weight less, so using a smaller diameter head will reduce weight.

 

[Blue Sky]

I think AUS 8 is a pretty good choice for a broadhead. Tough, stainless and edge holding plenty good enough for the purpose. I don’t see much advantage to the higher alloys mentioned other than bragging rights perhaps. Just how light do you want to be? Lighter is faster but mass has benefits for penetration once you get there.

 

[Korean Hog]

+1 opinion for higher end steel not being needed
I think using some of the higher end steels like you mentioned for broad-heads would add unnecessary cost to production or unnecessary frustration for you if making them yourself.
For lighter/ faster arrows I think looking at how the rest of the arrow is made in terms of materials and, especially, design would get you closer to the results you're after.
I'm not a bow hunter, but I think metals like AUS-8 are going to be about as high end a steel as you can get without adding unnecessary cost.

 

[W. Anderson]

What you need is AEB-L. It is very affordable, very stainless, very tough and takes the finest edge of any steel I've sharpened. Look it up. They make razor blades out of it.

 

[afishhunter]

Are you making only for yourself or to market locally or nationally?

There is a reason currently available broadheads are 100 and 125 grains. (they also make an 85 grain broadhead, but from what I've seen they don't have the 1 inch cutting diameter required by the hunting regulations. I know my local archery shop does not sell many, not even to those who shoot 3D, or are going hunting someplace where the smaller diameter is allowed.)

100 grain is the most popular weight sold.
Any bow has a minimum arrow weight that is safe to shoot. Also, some jurisdictions, (Idaho, for one) have a minimum (total) arrow weight in the hunting regulations.

Some of us are not on the "speed is king" band wagon. We understand that a heavier arrow has more kinetic energy than a lighter arrow, regardless of speed. (hence better penetration)

There are a few, like me, who need a heavy arrow.
No matter what bow I shoot, because I am deformed and have a short 23 inch draw length, my arrow, no matter what it weighs, is never going to break even 200FPS, regardless of what the manufacture says the arrow speed of the bow is with a 30 inch draw and and 300 or 310 grain arrow.
I need fixed blade cut on contact broadheads. The last thing I want is to hit a critter and watch my arrow bounce off. (I don't shoot past 25~30 yards, and prefer to be closer to 15~20 yards)

Personally, I'd like to see some 150 to 200~250 grain fixed blade broadheads on the market. I'd buy them, if they were affordable.

The blade thickness is set by hunting regulations. I believe manufacturers make all their blades to meet the requirements of the location that requires the thickest blade. They are not state/jurisdiction specific.

If you plan on marketing them, what price point are you looking at? Last I looked, the average cost for a name brand broadhead is between $10 and $12 each, online or in a brick and mortar archery shop or national sporting goods store..
You'll have to at least meet that or come in a little below, at least until you get brand recognition if you're going to sell them.

Just like custom knife makers just starting out, they can't get the same prices of known makers. You'll be in the same boat.

1095/5160/440A/420HC all have a long history of being used for broadheads.
Of the more modern steels you mentioned being used, such as S30V, my local Archery shop does not carry them. Only one of the national brands using one of the 10xx or 5160 carbon steels or one of the 400 series stainless. At least in the fixed blade broadheads. The expandables they sell to folk leaving Idaho to hunt,, I really have not paid much attention to. (Idaho is one of only two locations in North America that does not allow hunting with expanding/mechanical broadheads. Fixed blade only, regardless if long bow/recurve, compound bow, or crossbow. Oregon is the other.
Consider your intended market. I'd guess 99.9% of archers are not "knife nuts". If they carry a knife at all when not hunting, from what I"ve seen at the indoor range, besides me, there might be one or two others that have a pocket knife. (I've been there when all forty shooting lanes were being used, too.)

They don't know anything about steels. They want something that is easy to sharpen if necessary when out in the field, and does not require an expensive/fancy diamond or SiC stone. Many use a broadhead specific draw-through sharpener.
Most only shoot a couple broadheads a year. They are certainly not used for target practice year round.
I'd guess the "average" hunting archer only owns 3 to 6 broadheads, and only replaces them if damaged, or when the arrow is lost.
Target archers of course have no need of broadheads, so don't own any.

 

[CVamberbonehead]

Are you making only for yourself or to market locally or nationally?

There is a reason currently available broadheads are 100 and 125 grains. (they also make an 85 grain broadhead, but from what I've seen they don't have the 1 inch cutting diameter required by the hunting regulations. I know my local archery shop does not sell many, not even to those who shoot 3D, or are going hunting someplace where the smaller diameter is allowed.)

100 grain is the most popular weight sold.
Any bow has a minimum arrow weight that is safe to shoot. Also, some jurisdictions, (Idaho, for one) have a minimum (total) arrow weight in the hunting regulations.

Some of us are not on the "speed is king" band wagon. We understand that a heavier arrow has more kinetic energy than a lighter arrow, regardless of speed. (hence better penetration)

There are a few, like me, who need a heavy arrow.
No matter what bow I shoot, because I am deformed and have a short 23 inch draw length, my arrow, no matter what it weighs, is never going to break even 200FPS, regardless of what the manufacture says the arrow speed of the bow is with a 30 inch draw and and 300 or 310 grain arrow.
I need fixed blade cut on contact broadheads. The last thing I want is to hit a critter and watch my arrow bounce off. (I don't shoot past 25~30 yards, and prefer to be closer to 15~20 yards)

Personally, I'd like to see some 150 to 200~250 grain fixed blade broadheads on the market. I'd buy them, if they were affordable.

The blade thickness is set by hunting regulations. I believe manufacturers make all their blades to meet the requirements of the location that requires the thickest blade. They are not state/jurisdiction specific.

If you plan on marketing them, what price point are you looking at? Last I looked, the average cost for a name brand broadhead is between $10 and $12 each, online or in a brick and mortar archery shop or national sporting goods store..
You'll have to at least meet that or come in a little below, at least until you get brand recognition if you're going to sell them.

Just like custom knife makers just starting out, they can't get the same prices of known makers. You'll be in the same boat.

1095/5160/440A/420HC all have a long history of being used for broadheads.
Of the more modern steels you mentioned being used, such as S30V, my local Archery shop does not carry them. Only one of the national brands using one of the 10xx or 5160 carbon steels or one of the 400 series stainless. At least in the fixed blade broadheads. The expandables they sell to folk leaving Idaho to hunt,, I really have not paid much attention to. (Idaho is one of only two locations in North America that does not allow hunting with expanding/mechanical broadheads. Fixed blade only, regardless if long bow/recurve, compound bow, or crossbow. Oregon is the other.
Consider your intended market. I'd guess 99.9% of archers are not "knife nuts". If they carry a knife at all when not hunting, from what I"ve seen at the indoor range, besides me, there might be one or two others that have a pocket knife. (I've been there when all forty shooting lanes were being used, too.)

They don't know anything about steels. They want something that is easy to sharpen if necessary when out in the field, and does not require an expensive/fancy diamond or SiC stone. Many use a broadhead specific draw-through sharpener.
Most only shoot a couple broadheads a year. They are certainly not used for target practice year round.
I'd guess the "average" hunting archer only owns 3 to 6 broadheads, and only replaces them if damaged, or when the arrow is lost.
Target archers of course have no need of broadheads, so don't own any.

You should give insert weights a shot (forgive the pun) if you havent already, you can get them from 3rivers or Lancaster Archery or the like. They are brass inserts for extra weight to give better weight front of center and better penetration, they would be good for your situation I think. Pretty much the exact opposite of what the OP wants though, sorry to be off topic lol.

 

[afishhunter]

You should give insert weights a shot (forgive the pun) if you havent already, you can get them from 3rivers or Lancaster Archery or the like. They are brass inserts for extra weight to give better weight front of center and better penetration, they would be good for your situation I think. Pretty much the exact opposite of what the OP wants though, sorry to be off topic lol.

My "good" arrows were built with 75 grain inserts. (heaviest the archery shop had in stock)
Next batch I'll have them use the 150 grain inserts. I'd like at least 10 grains arrow weight for each pound of draw weight.
(my compound bow maxes out at 62.5 pounds at my disgusting and pathetic draw length. At least it is legal to hunt any critter there is a season for in Idaho, with it.)

To the OP:
I'm not sure there is a market for lighter than 85 grain broadheads, since the 85's don't sell that well.
Also not sure about a market for broadheads made with more "modern" or "super steels". If there was, surely the big name broadhead manufacturers would offer them.
The question to ask yourself is: "Will they kill game any better than what's on the market now?"

 

[James Muhlbeier]

Are you making only for yourself or to market locally or nationally?

There is a reason currently available broadheads are 100 and 125 grains. (they also make an 85 grain broadhead, but from what I've seen they don't have the 1 inch cutting diameter required by the hunting regulations. I know my local archery shop does not sell many, not even to those who shoot 3D, or are going hunting someplace where the smaller diameter is allowed.)

100 grain is the most popular weight sold.
Any bow has a minimum arrow weight that is safe to shoot. Also, some jurisdictions, (Idaho, for one) have a minimum (total) arrow weight in the hunting regulations.

Some of us are not on the "speed is king" band wagon. We understand that a heavier arrow has more kinetic energy than a lighter arrow, regardless of speed. (hence better penetration)

There are a few, like me, who need a heavy arrow.
No matter what bow I shoot, because I am deformed and have a short 23 inch draw length, my arrow, no matter what it weighs, is never going to break even 200FPS, regardless of what the manufacture says the arrow speed of the bow is with a 30 inch draw and and 300 or 310 grain arrow.
I need fixed blade cut on contact broadheads. The last thing I want is to hit a critter and watch my arrow bounce off. (I don't shoot past 25~30 yards, and prefer to be closer to 15~20 yards)

Personally, I'd like to see some 150 to 200~250 grain fixed blade broadheads on the market. I'd buy them, if they were affordable.

The blade thickness is set by hunting regulations. I believe manufacturers make all their blades to meet the requirements of the location that requires the thickest blade. They are not state/jurisdiction specific.

If you plan on marketing them, what price point are you looking at? Last I looked, the average cost for a name brand broadhead is between $10 and $12 each, online or in a brick and mortar archery shop or national sporting goods store..
You'll have to at least meet that or come in a little below, at least until you get brand recognition if you're going to sell them.

Just like custom knife makers just starting out, they can't get the same prices of known makers. You'll be in the same boat.

1095/5160/440A/420HC all have a long history of being used for broadheads.
Of the more modern steels you mentioned being used, such as S30V, my local Archery shop does not carry them. Only one of the national brands using one of the 10xx or 5160 carbon steels or one of the 400 series stainless. At least in the fixed blade broadheads. The expandables they sell to folk leaving Idaho to hunt,, I really have not paid much attention to. (Idaho is one of only two locations in North America that does not allow hunting with expanding/mechanical broadheads. Fixed blade only, regardless if long bow/recurve, compound bow, or crossbow. Oregon is the other.
Consider your intended market. I'd guess 99.9% of archers are not "knife nuts". If they carry a knife at all when not hunting, from what I"ve seen at the indoor range, besides me, there might be one or two others that have a pocket knife. (I've been there when all forty shooting lanes were being used, too.)

They don't know anything about steels. They want something that is easy to sharpen if necessary when out in the field, and does not require an expensive/fancy diamond or SiC stone. Many use a broadhead specific draw-through sharpener.
Most only shoot a couple broadheads a year. They are certainly not used for target practice year round.
I'd guess the "average" hunting archer only owns 3 to 6 broadheads, and only replaces them if damaged, or when the arrow is lost.
Target archers of course have no need of broadheads, so don't own any.

Look at magnus, steel force and Ozcut broadheads for average cost 150-200 gr broadheads. The Ozcut ultra 4 in 150 gr looks amazing, I am currently shooting the Ozcut ultra 4 in 100 grs. around 450 gr total weight but plan to bump up to around 500-550.

I am sorry I wasn't very clear in my intent. I am looking at making some and playing with designs for myself if indeed I come up with something that is worth marketing then I will go from there look at cost and so on. Mostly likely building some for myself and a few others unless they really really are an improvement on what is out there. (I am not delusional I know that this is very very very unlikely)

I am not interested in expandables. I want to build a 2 blade single bevel Cut on contact ( think Bone broadheads) and a 4 blade cut on contact (tooth of the arrow has some good ideas with a machined 4 blade but i think much more could be done with this concept) in a full size range starting at 100 and up. I am wanting to look at other alloys that are lighter to do a few things. Add mass with thicker blades for durability and bone breaking/cracking ability. Beefing up to .6 vs .30 (most states minimum due to lost of blade integrity at impact and wounding animals) would add blade integrity a curled, bent or broken broadhead slows or stops penetration to vitals quickly. would also add the abiltity to add other features for aerodynamics. Make longer blades with a longer angle to aid penetration closer to DR Ashby's 3 inches in length to 1 inched in width ratio ... steeper blade angles slow penetration ( think work force one a incline plane).

 

[James Muhlbeier]

I have spent 3-4 hrs daily for 2-3 months researching and have a couple concepts narrowed down. Without doing into too much detail I really want to make a 150-200 gr machined 4 blade.... would be killer.

 

[Korean Hog]

I have spent 3-4 hrs daily for 2-3 months researching and have a couple concepts narrowed down. Without doing into too much detail I really want to make a 150-200 gr machined 4 blade.... would be killer.

Hey at the end of the day a blade is a blade and this is Blade Forums. I'd be interested to see what you come up with and hell, why not make it outta some high end stuff like CPM 3V if you're making them yourself I say go all out!

 

[Mikel_24]

Lighter is faster but mass has benefits for penetration once you get there.

Energy wise it is better to shot a ligther arrow faster than a heavier arrow slower. As the energy on impact is proportional to the square of the speed (in comparison with being directly proportional to the mass).

That said, and given I only shoot spears out of my speargun while underwater, I would try to stick to current designs as a baseline and see what could be sligthly improved. Cost and material availability is also a consideration, as I guess you could loose a few arrows during each hunting trip.

Mikel

 

[Blue Sky]

It’s how that energy is dissipated that counts. And a higher mass will retain more for longer on impact, giving greater penetration. At least that’s what the ballistics experts tell me.

 

[rileybassman1]

Energy wise it is better to shot a ligther arrow faster than a heavier arrow slower. As the energy on impact is proportional to the square of the speed (in comparison with being directly proportional to the mass).

That said, and given I only shoot spears out of my speargun while underwater, I would try to stick to current designs as a baseline and see what could be sligthly improved. Cost and material availability is also a consideration, as I guess you could loose a few arrows during each hunting trip.

Mikel

I'm not a math guy... but I know that in reality with archery (and rifles as well) that heavier/slower=more penetration (heavier and same speed would be more, but you have to give up speed to get weight) - obviously there is a law of diminishing returns too - but the other factor to consider is broadheads get much more squirly when you are flirting with 3-320+ FPS and they are far easier to tune in the 260-280 range.

Arrows kill differently then bullets do - you can get hydrostatic shock and internal hemorrhaging due to the energy dump of a bullet with organ damage/blood loss as a secondary function - with an arrow, you are relying on penetration/bloodloss/organ damage - which is also why it *tends* (not always tho) to take longer to die from an arrow wound then a bullet wound.

As to broadheads - I think edge retention and toughness are both very important... with modern premium broadheads, I may shoot each head 60-100 times before a hunting trip and then strop/touch them up... you don't get to just switch from field points to broadheads and then go hunting... they require tuning etc - so I think both features are good.

It's been said bu I would brush up on some of the most common state laws as well... with regards to minimum cutting diameter and blade shape etc... you would want a decent seller so a broad appeal...

I would pursue tool steels if it were me, 3V, A2 etc... maybe some tougher stainless steels like AEB-L, S35VN, possibly Elmax... the new S45VN looks promising and you could be one of the first to bring that to market which would be cool...

I am a big fan of Iron Will broadheads which are made from A2 at 58-60 rockwell I believe and I have been pretty impressed as to what level of toughness you can get... couple pics here showing the durability of 60 Rockwell A2... shot was 72 yards and this is the off shoulder of my bull elk from last year - arrow was a complete pass through (this is why I shoot heavier/slower is penetration is king with archery)

 

[rileybassman1]

Also, it may have been said... but you could consider insert weights/shaft collars etc for adding weight... aka a 125 grain head with a 75 grain collar - gets you to 200 grains, but then the whitetail guys, who don't need a 200 grain head, would still be able to buy the head but the elk/bison/bear hunters who want all the weight they can get up front have options... just an idea - good luck! Most of the super heavy heads tend to be 2 blade variants as well for better penetration... if you are thinking about 175-200 grain heads.

Edit to add: Just re-read again... yea there won't be much market for super light heads... arrow total weight and broad head weight/cutting diameter/shapre are regulated... not to mention if the FOC (Front of Center) is lower and lower (aka lightweight head) accuracy and arrow stability suffers the faster they are pushed.

 

[W. Anderson]

I have spent 3-4 hrs daily for 2-3 months researching and have a couple concepts narrowed down. Without doing into too much detail I really want to make a 150-200 gr machined 4 blade.... would be killer.

Care to post up some drawings? Have you considered looking at 3-d printing?