Bronze vs. steel blade

B

buendia

Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
83
I was always fascinated by the times when there was Steel Revolution about 3000 years ago. Smallest blades made of steel had enormous value then. People killed for it. The whole nations that we don`t know today "disappeared" because of the steel priority over bronze. Just imagine...
Hundreds of years of using stone and bronze. Later raw iron. Disputes over sharpening, edge retention, which material is better for EDC... And suddenly you see such a cosmic, steel knife... or sword... I mean your grand, grand, grand, multigrandfather saw that. And went crazy...


I wonder if there are available any test results concerning toughness and edge retention of bronze, iron and steel. So as I wouldn`t have to buy a bronze knife... :D


There are a couple of Dutch guys who voluntarily work in Bronze Age circumstances and are making bronze replicas in a Bronze Age way. They have very inspiring web page - http://1500bc.com/bronzeage/index_eng.html.
 
I lost the links but there is a page somewhere on the net that shows the construction of some ancient Chinese bronze swords, including layered patterns and those with a harder alloy edge and a softer alloy core, some that were chrome plated and one that had a very pretty checkered pattern of red and yellow bronze. Some of these techniques were adopted into later iron/steel forgings and later borrowed and further developed by Japanese smiths.
 
I found very interesting information: "Hammered bronze edge tools and weapons retain a harder and sharper edge than any edge tools and weapons made from wrought iron. Early metallurgists smelting bronze probably also knew how to smelt iron; the bronze weapons and tools they were making simply had more durability and usefulness than the same artifacts made from malleable wrought iron. The length of the bronze age, as defined as a period of time characterized by the predominant use of bronze tools, varies among geographical locations. In northern Mesopotamia, the bronze age gave way to the iron age by 2000 BC. In continental Europe, the bronze age ended in 750 BC. In Britain, a gradual end came between 500 BC and 100 BC. Denmark and Iceland continued the use of bronze tools until 100 AD."

The whole article is here:
http://www.davistownmuseum.org/TDMtool.htm
 
The was (is?) a knifemaker that forged Bronze, and from what I remember, the strength was roughly equivalent to 440a. It might be okay for knives, but for swords, probably utter crap.
 
more importantly, I wonder what the next revolutionary material for blades will be. People in the future: " I can't believe they used to make knives out of steel, hah what primitive people!"
 
Johnny Blaze said:
more importantly, I wonder what the next revolutionary material for blades will be. People in the future: " I can't believe they used to make knives out of steel, hah what primitive people!"
Click to expand...
Oh, come on, everyone knows it's going to be either adamantium or plasma>>>>>

:D
 
My money's on monomolecular blades made out of memory plastics and held together with magnetic fields. :D No more debates about the best cutter ever again.
 
Walking Man said:
The was (is?) a knifemaker that forged Bronze, and from what I remember, the strength was roughly equivalent to 440a. It might be okay for knives, but for swords, probably utter crap.
Click to expand...

440A! I want that knife!
 
Interesting link Buendia!

As for the future of blade construction, I honestly think (hope) the next step will be diamond. Synthetic diamonds were once useful only as abrasives because of the lack of quality/shape control. But manufacturing processes are to the point where they have excellent control over geometry. Interesting read here: http://wired-vig.wired.com/
 
I don't think diamonds would make good blades... one sharp rap and it could split right down one of its cleavage planes. Besides, what would you sharpen it on?
 
The very first liner lock folder I made was made using a flat piece of bronze I got in a yard sale. I was quite surprised at how strong that lock actually was to be honest. It was quite difficult to bend and very hard to push to the side to close the blade also.

I've never seen bronze sheets for sale before or since though. I know the ancients used bronze pins they poured into cut outs of the rocks they laid to re-enforce the walls they built. I saw some of these dog bone shaped pins they had used when I was in Peru in Machu Pichu. They are apparently strong enough to work to hold stones weighing many tons. Apparently these bronze pins are the reason the walls have proven to be quite unaffected by earthquakes. In certain ways bronze may indeed be superior strength wise to steel that is iron based.
 
A few nights ago on UK TV there was a programme called What The Ancients Did For Us. It's a series exploring the technologies of past civilisations.

This episode showed a UK swordmaker manufacturing exact replicas of ancient sword blades; one from iron, one from bronze. The blades were then put through simulated combat by stuntmen. I confidently said to my wife, "The bronze blade will be hacked to shreds by the iron one."

How wrong I was...

After some energetic cuts and parries, the presenter examined both blades. The bronze one was almost intact. The iron one showed deep cuts and damage to its edge.

Hmmm...

maximus otter
 
I`m quoting Jeroen Zuiderwijk, Dutch expert at Bronze Age metallurgy:
"Pure iron, as was used in the early iron age, is actually softer then
bronze. This is probably one of the reasons why bronze swords were
still used for hunderds of years after iron was introduced. Even in my
own country, 800 kilometers away from the nearest copper and tin ores,
but loaded with iron ore, they kept importing bronze swords and axes
for 300 years after the introduction of iron.

In terms of hardness, a good bronze is in the mild steel range. But
iron was much easier available, so even if bronze was superior, one man
with a bronze sword is no match against several with iron ones. Higher
quality steels were developed later on, but for a long time it was a
hit and miss. As far as I understand, only from the second half of the
middleages onwards actual high quality steel blades were being made on
a more consistant basis.
From personal experience for instance, I don't notice the difference between a modern, high quality steel knife or axe and my own made bronze ones when using them. The only differences I notice that the bronze ones I have to sharpen more often,
and they are more susceptable to abuse (hitting rocks etc.). But same
edge shape, same sharpness. "

Very, very interesting...

I must admit that I got caught by the idea of having my own bronze blade. I wanted to order one, custom made, but nobody here in Poland or Czech Republic seems to cast his own bronze in an ancient way. There are many kinds of modern bronzes like eg. silicon, aluminium, phosphor bronze etc., each for different, specific purpose. Generally, with the small exceptions, these bronzes do not have much in common with the ancient ones (although they also varied greatly they weren`t improved by the addition of SiO2, Al or P).
Accidentally, I found out that in the beginning of XX c. bronze knives were factory produced in Austria or Italy. The blades were made of "steel bronze" invented in 1874 by an Austrian inventor and military Hans Uchatius, of course for military purposes (cannon barrels). "Uchatius bronze" contains 92% of copper and 8% of tin and was processed by cold rolling. Its mchanical qualities, consistency and cold tempering pretty much resemble some ancient bronzes.
 
yuzuha said:
I don't think diamonds would make good blades... one sharp rap and it could split right down one of its cleavage planes. Besides, what would you sharpen it on?
Click to expand...
Supersonic water jets.. I'm not kidding, they make these! (no idea where but someone does.)

BTW IRON and STEEL are very different metals, even though one is 99% the other.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top