Bronze washers vs Teflon, which is better

ERdept

ERdept

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A very well known knife maker stated that he used bronze washers instead of teflon because they were tougher (les prone to wear, less blade play) than teflon washers.

He also stated that his competitors used teflon because their knives opened more smoothly giving the customer the appearance of quality, but that bronze did not open and close as smoothly but was superior.

I tend to agree that metal in general is more resiliant than plastic. Do you guys agree with the above maker's claims?

Here are the makers that use bronze washers:

Chris Reeve
Strider
Darrel Ralph

regards,

cliff
 
In my experience, that is very true.

Teflon is much slicker than PB, so it's smoother at first, but Teflon can only take so much before it starts to crack and fall apart. PB washers last much longer, and the cost of slightly less slipperyness(is that a word?)
 
I always thought that plastics would creep more (and experience other degradation), so over time would create blade play. I know that when new, synthetic washers seem to allow more blade play than bronze washers.

I don't see any real smoothness advantage issues with synthetics. Once I tighten down on the pivot to remove blade play, smoothness in opening is usually lost.
 
PB is better especially in environments where there is a lot of sand. Buck also used PB on their Strider knives.
 
I don´t agree with that and personally think you have found three good points to look for another knife maker with a more fair and honest attitude.

I never had nor did i heard of broken teflon washers.

Any BM i had with PB was smooth as silk so maybe the maker should consider some improvement in workmanship instead of blaming the unnamed other knifemaker for "inferior" knifes.

A smooth opening folder with no blade play is superior to a less smooth opening folder in any way.

I know a very good knife maker, that uses teflon, i know of others who use nylatron and have a knife with a nylatron like washer, i have lost the name but it is used in magnetic pumps and is wear resistant as hell.

To me it sounds like you were talking about Mick Strider.
 
Put it this way: Benchmade used to use teflon washers. They recently upgraded to Phosphor bronze.

PB washers reduce bladeplay and increase slippage.

Taken from Knife Kits:

"These washers help the blade to become more ridged in the handle, reducing side-to-side play, while producing the smoothest action and slippage available.

Our 3/16" phosphorous-bronze pivot pin washers are designed to work in any folding knife or balisong. Professionals prefer the phosphorous-bronze composite washer material for its ultra-high slip properties, while providing excellent tensile strength, a noted characteristic of all high performance folding knives. "
 
I have never personally noticed a ton of practical difference, in use. I've had bronze washers kink on me during knife reassembly, instantly becoming useless. I've also had nylon washers deform on me during reassembly. The knife was still usable at least, but less smooth. Bronze would get my nod for long term durability, as it won't dry out and crack, like so many synthetic washers. But bronze does seem to require vigilant lubrication though, or the knife becomes noticeably hard to open.

My personal favorite would probably have to be those weird colored washers on my Spyderco Military and Paramilitary. They are very wear resistant, and pretty tough to kink to the point of a noticeable loss in smoothness. They aren't as buttery smooth as your basic white nylon washer, but seem to be smoother than bronze. A very nice compromise, if you ask me.
 
This issue came up a year or so ago when Spyderco started switching to PB.

I have had both Mylar and nylon/teflon bearings rip, tear or bunch up. It's made worse because in most knives that have adjustable pivot tension. It won't stay tight and you have to keep monkeying with the tension because of washer squish.

Are they smoother initally, yes, are they a choice for long term and quality? no.

PB is less smooth initally, but it wears in after a while. If you want you can tune your PB washers by polishing them. I tried it, I wasn't sure at first, but then yes it works.
 
I like the PB washers more, as knives that I have with those just seem to be tighter. I think that the "smoothness" of a knife is more a funtion of how well the manufacturing is done, rather than what kind of washer is used. I don't ever recall having a smother knife than my 710 or Buck TNT both of which I believe have PB washers.

That being said, I have never had a problem with teflon washers wearing and the blades becoming loose, they never seem to be quite as tight off the bat though.
 
Django606 said:
Put it this way: Benchmade used to use teflon washers. They recently upgraded to Phosphor bronze.
Click to expand...

They were using nylatron. My first BM was with that stuff and i asked them what it was, so Angie told me, they were nylatron. They were changing after that, but you can´t always say, if i weren´t just because some custom makers set trends they had to follow, without asking. Wouldn´t be surprising, if that was the only reason.

Egon Trompeter from Germany still uses nylatron and maks the finest folding knives.

"These washers help the blade to become more ridged in the handle, reducing side-to-side play, while producing the smoothest action and slippage available.

Our 3/16" phosphorous-bronze pivot pin washers are designed to work in any folding knife or balisong. Professionals prefer the phosphorous-bronze composite washer material for its ultra-high slip properties, while providing excellent tensile strength, a noted characteristic of all high performance folding knives. "
Click to expand...

This doen´t fit to the makers claims, quoted at the top of page, doesn´t it? :D
 
If my folder can be taken apart and put together again with relative ease , I upgrade to PB.
It only stands to reason that PB will stand the test of time , I would think contact with solvents , oils etc would aid in the break down of teflon or plastic washers.
The knives I have upgraded feel tighter and more secure , plus it makes the 'snap!' , a little more crisp.:)
 
The only thing i dislike about my SERE2000 are the white plastic washers. Did anybody exchange them for bronze ones? Where can I get bronze ones?
 
ginshun said:
I don't ever recall having a smother knife than my 710 or Buck TNT both of which I believe have PB washers.
Click to expand...


I believe the Buck Mayo uses Teflon (or similar) washers.

My personal preference is PB, but in 3 years my Buck Mayo is as tight and smooth as it ever was, and I carry it on a regular basis.

I believe Tom Mayo uses a synthetic washer of some sort, not PB. I have never heard of any problems with his knives. Everything I have ever heard has been quite positive.
 
rebeltf said:
I would think contact with solvents , oils etc would aid in the break down of teflon or plastic washers.
Click to expand...

Teflon is quite resistant to most oils and solvents. Other types of plastic vary in their resistance to solvents, but if you are worried about solvents hurting the washers, then you are dealing with solvents that you do not want on you either. In other words, the knife will not likely ever see such solvents.
 
the coefficient of friction of PB is 9 times that of teflon in this chart

http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-frictioncoefficient.htm

So PB isn't anywhere near as smooth, but it's smooth enough. I don't have much of a preference, unless it's on a knife where they use those washers so thin that light passes through them. I hate reassembling those.

edit:these charts are neat :)
http://www.engineersedge.com/coeffients_of_friction.htm
http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/frictioncoefficients.htm
 
coefficient of friction of PB is 9 times that of teflon
Click to expand...

Which is meaningless because 1) there's no nylon/teflon combination listed and 2) you are comparing the "dry" numbers vs the "lubricated" numbers.
 
I use PB in all my folders. If a knife is built correctly (all parts flat, holes perpendicular, etc.) you can not tell the difference in smoothness between PB and Teflon. One thing that you will notice is the side to side is dead tight with PB. A knife with Teflon washers can feel tight with light side pressure, but if you increase it a little bit you will feel the washers squishing.

Another reason I use PB in my customs is the fact that I can lap them flat, and to a desired thickness.
 
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