Buck Selkirk v.s. Buck Vanguard

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So, I recently misplaced my Buck 113 ranger skinner.

(Well, not really. I don't actually know where it is, but I'm fairly confident it'll show up again. But don't tell the missus, this is a fine excuse to buy a new knife)

So now I'm looking at purchasing a new Buck. I'll mostly be using it for woodcarving and general chores (mostly cutting fire starters).

The Buck Selkirk caught my eye. I like the shape of the blade and the grip, and the free firestarter is a nice bonus. I also like that Buck states it can be used as an improvised hammer in a pinch and that it is full tang. However, I've read that this is a non-usa made Buck and as such the heat-treat may be inferior. I'm also not partial to the nylon sheath. I also have my doubts about the micarta handles. I mean, I can get over it, but I prefer more natural-looking materials such as a leather sheath and wood (or stag, but that is hard to obtain in my country) handles.

So, I'm also looking at the vanguard, which has dymondwood handles and a leather sheath. I also like the safety guard. I'm a little less enthusiastic about the blade shape, though (but only a little).

Considering the planned use of this knife, how do the two knives compare to each other?

Thank you in advance for your input.

(Edit: OCD edit for minor typos).
 
Lodd,

I think the major difference is grind. The Selkirk was designed as a survival knife and had a flat grind whereas the Vanguard was designed as hunting knife and has a hollow grind. I prefer flat grinds for working with wood over hollow grinds (and prefer convexed sabre or convexed scandi grinds over flat). I find that the shoulder of the hollow grind hangs up on deep cuts in wood and I find I can control shaving thickness better with an edge that is wider just behind the edge. Buck's hollow grinds are great for meat but I find they tend to "dive" into wood when making shavings with them.

Another difference is the style of tang. The Selkirk has a full tang and the Vanguard has a fairly thin rat tail tang. I baton wood with rat tail knives but I do it rather gingerly. If you want a knife you can bang on, I would steer towards the Selkirk.

I have 3 hesitations about the Selkirk. First, the 420HC doesn't have Buck's excellent BOS heat treat since it's a made-in-China knife. Second, the front of the handle has a sharp drop to the blade. When I'm doing wood working with a knife, I prefer a narrow side to the grip at the front to allow for a more comfortable pinch hold for draw cuts. Lastly, I don't care for jimping on the spine of a wood working knife. Makes more sense to me for a hunting knife (blood and guts) but on a wood working knife, they give me a hot spot.

The large Bucklite Max is another to consider. It's essentially a full tang knife and would work well for draw cuts but probably doesn't have enough palm swell to be comfortable making feather sticks and shavings.
 
The Selkirk is feature rich and probably what you need. But, I love the Vanguard and I own two. I won't be switching anytime soon.

Here are some pretty pictures to sway your decision.

BuckVanguard01_zpssrlaffxe.jpg


BuckVanguard02_zpsedxx6xzi.jpg
 
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I have a Selkirk that I've been playing with for a few months now. I've had no problems with it for fire prep and other wood-related chores including some batoning. I bought it for the blade shape, grind, and because I really like the wood-like look of the scales combined with their low-maintenance and durability qualities. I haven't had any issues with weakness of the steel due to inferior heat treat, but I have noticed it does show wear rather easily. Its a user, not a show knife, so that doesn't bother me.

I wasn't real impressed with the sheath either. I prefer leather danglers in cross draw. I do like the durability of it. I put a TekLok and RotoLok combo on it (bought cheap as part of a kydex Sog tomahawk sheath on Amazon) and now it's easy to put on and take off and I can wear it cross draw as I like.

The Vanguard is a beautiful knife, and I'd love to have one as a hunting knife, but for wood work I prefer the selkirk.

I did initially have some sharp spots on the scales, which were easily remedied, and the handle is about an inch shorter than I'd like for my xl hands, but I don't regret the purchase and I've been using it a lot for fire prep.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 
I would like to thank you all for replying. I had to think long and hard about what to do, and the end result is...

I'm buying neither of them, right now.

Disappointing, I know, but hear me out.

The vanguard is a beautiful knife, but, as most people have pointed out, not very useful for woodworking. I would have gone for the Selkirk, but I live in the Netherlands and it's almost € 100,- . For that money I'd like to have a proper sheath and a proper Buck heat treat. I think some else mentioned getting the buck Selkirk on a good deal for $ 40. Now, that's a steal and I wouldn't think twice about it, but for € 100,- ? No thanks.

The search goes on, I've been eying the 101 for a bit but I'm honestly not sure what to think about it. I'm not sure if Buck has any knives that were designed with these specific needs in mind. Or at least any that are available to me at a reasonable price.
 
The vanguard is a beautiful knife, but, as most people have pointed out, not very useful for woodworking. I would have gone for the Selkirk, but I live in the Netherlands and it's almost € 100,- . For that money I'd like to have a proper sheath and a proper Buck heat treat. I think some else mentioned getting the buck Selkirk on a good deal for $ 40. Now, that's a steal and I wouldn't think twice about it, but for € 100,- ? No thanks.

The search goes on, I've been eying the 101 for a bit but I'm honestly not sure what to think about it. I'm not sure if Buck has any knives that were designed with these specific needs in mind. Or at least any that are available to me at a reasonable price.

Lodd, I think you have a good understanding of the situation.

Buck is the only knife brand I care about as a brand. I enjoy and use knives made by other makers and some have earned deep respect from me. But I love Buck in a different way.

With this said, my cutting interests have more to do with food and wood and I have to admit/understand that Buck is first and foremost a hunting knife company.

A few American makers are rediscovering sabre, scandi, and convex grinds (sabre/scandi grinds were common here up until the 50s or 60s and early Bucks were sabre ground). But for the time being, I think we have to enjoy Buck fixed blades for what they're primarily designed for (hunting).

If I lived where you do, I would be looking north for what you describe.
 
There are other Buck options deserving discussion. I would begin at bottom and give the 104 serious consideration. The 5160 steel knives will handle your wood needs and they are sharp as heck (don't disregard 5160, it's a good all around steel). The Brahmas just feel great in the hand and look great, so I included them too.

065 Buck/Hood Punk Knife (5160 steel)
119 Brahma Knife (420HC)
117 Small Brahma Knife (420HC)
104 Compadre Camp Knife (5160 steel)

BuckCampKnives_zpsaabvjh4s.jpg
 
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We just got back from a week of camping, which involved making fires twice a day. Inspired by the TV show Alone, my wife and kids wanted to learn how to make and lay a fire without resorting to using paper. I split the bundled wood to size with a hatchet and instructed them on how to make good shaving and further split kindling to twig size with a knife.

We had 2 knives with us: my 110 and a late 60s early 70s vintage Schrade-Walden fixed blade with a thin sabre grind. I had the family use both knives for making shavings back and forth.

The results were consistent among all of us.

We could all make shavings with the hollow ground 110.

But everybody hugely preferred the sabre ground Schrade for ripping off long curls. It's much easier to control the bite of the blade in the woods.

I don't think we're alone in this observation as the same basic thing gets reported consistently in the Outdoor and Wilderness forums.

I'm not slamming Buck nor the hollow grind nor people who like hollow grinds. But for a knife to be used for working wood, I definitely prefer some convexity in the grind. I can tell a huge difference.
 
There are other Buck options deserving discussion. I would begin at bottom and give the 104 serious consideration. The 5160 steel knives will handle your wood needs and they are sharp as heck (don't disregard 5160, it's a good all around steel). The Brahmas just feel great in the hand and look great, so I included them too.

065 Buck/Hood Punk Knife (5160 steel)
119 Brahma Knife (420HC)
117 Small Brahma Knife (420HC)
104 Compadre Camp Knife (5160 steel)


100 percent ditto.:thumbup:
 
Prince (the Artist) would have called this the "Little Red Corvette" of Buck knives. :cool:

I took it out and cut old dry and fresh cut sticks. Did fine. It feels good in "my" hand which translates into a feeling of control over the blade. Overall, a workable Buck solution to the need at hand. :thumbup:

Buck104a_zpsb76hhvt0.jpg

Buck104b_zpst5yxulvn.jpg

Buck104c_zps4mwcpvlk.jpg

Buck104d_zpspbocuxpu.jpg
 
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Well done BuckShack. I can add that the Vangard can be found in 425M steel and one up grade steel on a special run. (Cabelas S30V) Something to consider. DM
 
I really wish there was a Selkirk Pro model, made in the USA... s35v maybe? I do love the look of the knife.

I don't knock china made Buck's, even recommend them as options for budget minded folks. But personally, being such an iconic American brand, I can't bring myself around to buying one for myself. And I do own some China made knives, just can't bring myself to buy a Buck made in China, anymore then a Harley made in Mexico...
 
I would go with the vanguard over the Selkirk but I have to admit a like the styling of the Selkirk and micarta scales the made in China however puts me squarely in the vanguard corner. The Alaskan Guide version with S30v steel would be a great choice. The more I use that steel the more I like it. It doesn't keep a screaming sharp edge for terribly long but keeps a working sharp edge for a long long time and isn't difficult to sharpen if you using diamond stones.
 
If the Selkirk was made here I'd already own one. Super steel or not.

Probably a great knife as it is. I just haven't gotten there yet.
 
I know this is a Selkirk/Vanguard thread. But since we drifted a bit anyways. I'll add this.

I know a lot of the current thinking is you need a dedicated Bushcraft Knife for wood and fire chores. But I will also point out many of us long time buck users have built a fire or three prior to the current craze.

I find some of the normal Bucks do a very respectable job in the wood processing department.


My 105 Pathfinder for instance,


Or the 119,



Heck even the General does a decent job,



I'm pretty sure once you got used to it the Vanguard would work fine for you. Or the Selkirk if that's where your passions fall.

But don't ecpect any of them to sing right off the bat. Every knife I have ever used for shaving is a little different from the rest. But they all work pretty well. Some knifes are better than others. But they give something up somewhere else. Expect some trade offs.

Ironically, I have shaved more wood and built more fires with my Buck 102 Woodsman than all the other knives I own combined. And I don't have one picture of that knife in the field.

Mostly because it was back when I spent much more time in the woods and much less time on the internet. Much of it was actually before the internet, before cell phones, and before cable television. Cameras were for weddings not campsites back then.

Buy the knife that you like. If you don't already know how, learn how to keep it sharp. Use it a lot, and it will do what you need it to do.

When I think back on it. There are days when I wish I hadn't become a "Knife Guy" my little 102 did it all and I was happy. Now I have many. And the 102 still rocks my boat. Now I have two.
 
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I have both knives and the Selkirk is fine and works well but that little voice in my head keeps popping up that my brothers 5 miles away in post falls did not make that knife. So, I use the usa versions from Buck. Nothing wrong with the knife at all. I bought three but ended up giving away 2. One was to a guy I was camping near and he forgot his.
 
Well guys, I've been reading over your posts and they've given me inspiration for future purchases. However, I'm still not convinced that Buck has the knife I'm looking for right now.

I have recently acquired a 119. I've tried doing some simple shavings / woodwork with it. While it works fine if you need it to, it's hollow grind makes it far from agreeable for prolonged and/or frequent use in such scenarios. This is fine, as the knife was not designed with this function in mind and it's a beautiful knife in its' own right. It's rather strange however, that my 110's hollow grind doesn't bother me at all when woodworking, leading me to believe that this is only noticeable on hollow ground knives with a certain width, if that makes sense. Hence, I'll still be eying the 105 in the future.

I've also looked at the Compadre, but I'm wary of coated blades in general, and I don't quite fancy the look. I've heard good things about 5160, but I live in a small country next to the sea, and I wonder how the steel fares in terms of corrosion resistance.

The main thing, though, isn't that Buck doesn't offer great knives. (Although they do focus more on hunting and less on 'bushcraft' / woodworking / camp chores). The thing is that in the Netherlands, the pricing is all wonky compared to the U.S. Taken by themselves, the Compadre and the Selkirk are both perfectly valid options. But factoring in local availability / taxes / shipping and whatnot, the Selkirk goes for € 100,- and the Compadre is still about € 90,-. For those prices it's hard to compete with some more local offerings.

Now, I'm not knocking Chinese made knives or anything, but they've always been meant as a more budget-oriented option, and in the Netherlands the price difference is eleminated completely. I'm not blaming Buck or anyone for this, because I know it has to do with taxes and import regulations and whatnot.

Having said that, even though I'm not buying one of these knives right now, I definitely foresee more Buck knives in my future! Like that delicious 105 in cocobolo, for example!


P.S. As Lost Viking pointed out, a lot of us have been doing these things prior to the current 'bushcraft craze'. It's good to remember most of us didn't have specific fancy bushcraft knives before it all started. In fact, I feel kinda dirty taking the word 'bushcraft' in my mouth. But I suppose it's brought us good things as well, and if it's making more people interested in our hobbies or other noble pursuits like outdoor activities, scouting, nature courses, sutstainability and whatnot, I suppose that's a great thing.

Edited for typos, grammar and language.
 
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Lodd,

I don't care about any knife maker as a brand other than Buck. Some comments based on my experience and my shaky understanding of history follow. Like you, I wish I could find a knife that suited my preference that says "Buck" on the tang. Perhaps someday.


A buddy of mine is a professional carpenter and is into old hand tools. He hand splits clapboards for his old home restoration and has recently taken up spoon carving. We compare notes on knives and comment on my Mora companion saying, "It wants to throw a heavy curl." Point being, there's wood working and there's wood working. When doing fine work, like working on a spoon handle, you may want a very thin curl made with relatively light pressure and when doing heavy work, like peeling off shavings to make a fire, you may want comparatively thick curls made with a lot of hand pressure.

I've come to conclude that
a) making curls is best done with a convex EDGE (the shape near the apex)
b) the natural thickness that an edge makes depends on thickness of the blade behind the edge; namely, thicker edge -> thicker curl and thinner edge -> thinner curl.

I've also concluded that, as BuckShack and LostViking have shown, that a good hand can produce good curls with just about any knife. In particular, if I'm current "into" a knife, then I can enjoy using it on wood regardless. Up to a point. But on longer carving sessions, especially when I have multiple knives nearby, I tend to gravitate towards different knives because as my hands tire, some knives (for me) are just easier to keep using.

Wood knives by Pinnah, on Flickr


Many years ago, I started making these "wind twisters" to pass the time when sitting on a beach or around the fire in the back yard. My wife likes to hang them in the trees in the surrounding woods. The cuts require a relatively heavy hand, more like making feather sticks and less like spoon carving.

This stick has a tighter curl than most and I've used all of these knives in making this one and other. Yesterday, I worked on the stick during a day long family gathering using the recent Buck 110 on the far right. Similar to BuckShack and LostViking's shots, I made fine progress with the thin hollow grind on the 110.

This said, I've laid out the knives in rank ordering of my preference in doing this kind of wood working. Moving from right to left from OK to best: Buck 110 (c2005), Opinel #9, Buck 110 (c1977 with a semi-hollow grind), Schrade-Walden H-19 (c 1960s, modified to drop point), Mora Companion (reprofiled to full convex). I find that the Opinel and semi-hollow ground 110 grab curls with more authority and control and the Mora Companion is simply the top of the heap. When my hand is shot, that is the knife I want in my hand time and again.


In term of use as a "camp knife", for me, the winner is the H-15 which is similar in size to the Buck Compadre and, I think, has a lot more in common with the Compadre than first appears. For me and the way we camp, my camp knife needs to balance between food preparation and wood working. For example, a few weeks ago we were camping and had foil dinners, which required slicing up potatoes and carrots one the one hand and then making kindling and shavings on the other hand. The Opinel is (by far) the best slicer of the bunch and the Mora is (by far) the best wood crafter but the thin convexed sabre grind of the H-15 give me the best balance. It's thin enough to slice well but the convexed sabre grind makes big shavings with authority and can still split small kindling easily.

In terms of history, there's a really nice article on camp knives that appeared on the Master Woodsman web site. In particular the author discusses the Marbles Ideal (top) which he argues set the template for the American stacked washer style knife and the later Marbles Expert (middle).

Vintage-Marbles-Knives-31-1024x950.jpg


It's hard for me to look at the Ideal and Expert when talking about the Buck Compadre (or Endeavor) and not see a certain resemblance to the blade shapes and proportions.

One of the advances made in moving from the Ideal to the Expert was moving to a thin convex (sabre) grind. The author notes:

Yet, the Ideal was not “ideal.” WIth its 3/16″ spine it was still a bit thick and heavy for the most discriminating of woodsmen. Stewart Edward White complained that: “The common mistake among amateur hunters is that of buying too heavy a knife with too thick a blade. Unless you expect to indulge in hand to hand conflicts, or cut brush, such a weapon is excessive.” He proclaimed “a butcher knife of good make is one of the best and cheapest of sheath knives.” His opinion was shared by most other wood-wise campers.

Marbles responded with two new models: the Expert in 1906 and the Woodcraft in 1915. They were both thin-bladed-convex-edged models, and they quickly became the choice of the classic camping masters: White, Miller, Kreps, Mason and even Kephart himself. The Woodcraft went on to become Marble’s best seller of all times. Other companies copied them. My Boy Scout sheath knife (now long-lost) was a Marble’s-inspired model of a forgotten brand, and my father’s sheath knife (now in my possession) was a Marble’s-influenced model made by Western.

The full article is here:
http://masterwoodsman.com/2013/classic-camping-knives/

One of the companies that copied Marbles (besides Western) was Schrade-Walden, and later Schrade. The Schrade H-15 had similar lines to the Ideal and Expert (and Compadre), while the 147 had lines somewhat like the Marbles Woodcraft. Here is a Schrade branded (and unmodified) H-15. The key feature relative to this discussion is the grind, which like the Expert is a thin convexed sabre grind.

Schrade H-15 by Pinnah, on Flickr

My highly speculative understanding is that things changed dramatically from the 60s to the 80s as blades moved from hand ground to being ground by machines which increasingly used smaller radiused electric grinding wheels. Buck and Schrade both moved from sabre grinds to hollow grinds, although Buck moved to hollow grinds sooner I think while Schrade kept some sabre ground blades in their line up till the end. I suspect that the success of Bob Loveless's hollow ground knives had something to do with the aesthetic shift. I found a quote (but can't find it now) by Loveless that indicated that his move was more about aesthetics to sell more knives and not about performance. I think it's in his book on knife making.

In any event, I think a thinner convex sabre ground Compadre or Endeavor (minus the serrations) would be Ideal (pun intended) and in someways, a return to Buck's sabre ground roots. Until then, the US auctions have plenty of old Schrades and Westerns and the European retail market has a lot of Scandinavian blades that are easily convexed.
 
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