Burr removal problem

Joined
Dec 4, 2005
Messages
16
I sharpen my knives (I have around 150) with a belt sander but I have a problem that I hope someone can help me with. I usually can get a burr quickly but most of my knives end up dull because I do not know how to remove the burr without dulling the knife. I have watched many YouTube videos on the subject and have tried everything that they suggest and more. I have tried paper wheels, manual strops both with grit and without grit, leather belt sander belts both with and without grit, various techniques of stropping on whetstones, using water stones (1000/6000), diamond stones, ceramic rods, Arkansas stones, etc., etc., etc.

I really want to find a way to remove the burr quickly and efficiently so my knives will at least cut thin paper well and push cut hair. Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated. I am about go crazy trying to solve this problem!
 
Questions.
(1) What grit of belt do you finish at?
(2) How do you detect the burr?
(3) Do you have the problem even with a simple carbon steel like 1095?
 
Also you mention using a belt grinder, what brand is it? How many rpm?
Does it have a platen? Do you use it or do you go above it for a convex grind?
How much pressure do you use?
What angle do you try to hold the blade at?
Plus all the above questions.

I have a kalamazoo 1 x 42 and with just a couple of belts and less than 5 min. it will shave with no problem Also the angle you use has a lot to do with it.
 
To miso2,
1) I have belts ranging from 80 - 3000 grit. I usually produce the burr at 120-240 and then try to remove it. However, I have tried going thru the grits op to 3000 and anywhere in between.
2) I detect the burr both by feel and by visual confirmation(both with and without a 10x loupe). I have tried small burrs that could not be seen and intentionally created burrs that were very obvious.
3) I have knives in a lot of blade steels and some steels are definitely easier than others (VG10 is very difficult to get a burr at all). Although some steels are easier than other, I don't know about 1095. I'm not sure if I have any knives made with 1095.

To K80Shooter.
1) I have three belt sanders.
a) Harbor Freight @4200 rpm (I think).
b) WEN @4200 (I think).
c) Rikor variable from 2000-3400.
2) I use a platen for flat grides and above the platen for convex grinds. I usually do convex grinds.
3) My pressure varies from moderately high pressure top very light.
4) Most of the time I do shallow angles. such as 15 degrees.

A bit of background. I have been doing this for about two years. Sometimes I have been more successful than at other times. Sometimes I get at least paper cutting sharp but rarely shaving sharp. I also have a buffer with a buffing wheel on one end and a paper wheel at the other end. In the past, taking the burr to the paper wheel usually would take off the burr and (most of the time) make the blade at least paper cutting short. I presently have a leather belt without stropping compound and a leather belt with stropping compound on the Harbor Freight. In addition I have a charged (green compound) strop, a Spyderco Sharpmaker with the addition of coarse diamond rods and ultra mine ceramic rods. I also have a variety of other sharpeners as mentioned in my above post.

I can het the burr to bend back and forth until it appears to be gone. I then have tried pulling the blade thru hardwood, softwood, etc. Even with all this I can still feel the burr on the edge od the blade and it will slide on paper and not come close to shaving. Sometimes I finally bet the blade to where I cannot feel the burr but by this time I have dulled the blade.

Help!
 
Ok from what I see listed on your grinders I would use the Rikor with it turned down as low as it will go 2000 rpm. My Kalamazoo only turns 1425 rpm. The reason for this is to keep from getting the steel too hot which can in turn ruin it.

I'm not sure how you're determining your angle but here's how I do mine. I have it fixed so I can set my belt at a 19 degree angle. I have some adjusters that I made to lower my machine up or down and then use a angle guide to confirm the angel. Now all I have to do is hold the knife blade straight with the edge pointed down ( I like to get a trailing grind). Unless the blade is chipped or needing to be reground I use either a 220 or 240 grit aluminum oxide belt. If you're doing a convex grind only apply enough pressure to move the belt inward (not a light pressure but not heavy either) move the blade across from tang to tip. Sometimes I go back to the tang and others I pull the knife off at the tip. I do this till I have a bur that I can feel with my fingernail. Once I have my bur I'll flip to the other side and do the same until the bur has moved to the other side. I then swap to a 400 grit belt and only make a couple of passes on each side. You wont need as much pressure here as before. Again your bur will move from side to side.
From here I go to my leather belt with green compound on it. Do not use a lot of pressure but repeat the above procedure a couple of times on each side. Now most of the time I'll be wearing jeans so I'll place one foot on a stool then take the knife and strop it on my thigh just a few times on each side. If you've held the knife at the same angle through the whole process it should shave hair now with no problem.

I should have mentioned that I keep a container of water that I dip my blade into after each pass to keep my blade cool.

The only thing I do different on a v grind and using the platen is that when I change to the leather belt I always go above the platen with the knife, not too high mind you, just above the platen.

Now I do have a lot more belts that go higher in grit but just doing what I say above should get you shaving sharp. Also the higher I go with my belts, the less pressure I use. Sometimes I'm just barely touching the belt.

I have to think that you have a problem keeping the angle precise or just using too much pressure. It also could be a combination of both.

I'm sure someone else will chime in with other suggestions, this is just how I do it. Google "J Neilson knife sharpening" and you'll get some pretty good video's to watch.

If you happen to be around N.E. Georgia I'd be glad to help you out.
 
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Hi,
Are you using lube /cooling with your power equipment?

Use lube and light force with
the sharpmaker on 20degree per side/40degree setting
to remove the burr and set the shaving sharpness in some 5-20 passes per side.

Its elevated angle deburring, or double angle de-burring
If it doesn't work in 5-20pps, give it another 5-20pps :)

For more detailed/advanced sharpmaker debugging steps see Sharpening Curriculum / Trouble sharpening super blue - Spyderco Forums


knifesteelnerds.com/2019/04/08/does-sharpening-with-a-grinder-ruin-your-edge/
bladeforums.com/threads/chilling-blade-before-using-a-powered-belt.1630793/

Shearing off a Burr Using High Angle Passes - Steel_Drake
A Comparison of Deburring Techniques - Steel_Drake
 
Of the 150 knives find one with some plain high carbon steel from a reputable maker.
Order an Edge Pro Apex (order a good knife to if the plain high carbon isn't in your collection yet).
Follow the Edge Pro instructions and watch Ben's YouTubes.
I recommend making up a check list from the above and following it step by step. If the knife isn't hair whittling . . . you missed a step or two.

Sit back and have fun whittling arm hairs.
Plan what venues you will unload all that other equipment into.
Take money and go on vacation.

Sure belt sander and such if you are going to make knives. Or grind big chips out of machetes.
To put an edge on a knife that has already been reprofiled . . . on a knife with a bur for cripe sakes . . .
Edge Pro.
 
As far as burr removal, I have a few tried and true methods.

- Use very light pressure, alternate sides often ie. 3 passes on each side, then 2 passes, then 1 etc..

-Microbevel it- If you sharpened at 15 degrees per side, use a stone and increase your angle and do a few passes around 20 degrees on each side to sheer off the burr

-Work your way up to a very fine grit. Once you get past the coarse stones and progress up to a fine stone the burr formation is pretty much insignificant. A few swipes on a leather strop and any burr that was left should be gone.

Of course like Wowbagger said, an Edge Pro is always an option. Using a guided system really helps keep your angles consistent.
 
there are edge-leading sharpening strokes and edge-trailing sharpening strokes. either can form a burr.
today i managed to touch up a big Zwilling knife just with edge-following sharpening strokes on a small portable RUBY3000 stone (scratch pattern is parallel to apex line). first time i went down this curious path with this big particular knife because it's unconventional to do so, the knife's big! any micro burr formed got immediately sheared off as intended! (this method of deburring often works but can also fail with cheap ductile steels, so there's never a guarantee which deburring method works best)

also did wood stropping in direction of apex line, even though it wasn't really needed; it helped clean up singular micro burr rests.

this is the same as sideways motions on the Edge Pro Apex. not the recommended motion but hey for touch-ups why not.

i realize that the portable RUBY3000 is becoming more and more a key stone in my sharpening arsenal. cool.:cool:
 
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-Microbevel it- If you sharpened at 15 degrees per side, use a stone and increase your angle and do a few passes around 20 degrees on each side to sheer off the burr

I've just started to try this and it seems to be working well so far. By going to a slightly higher angle I can create a microbevel and remove the burr at the same time.

Some people say the best way to remove burrs is with edge-trailing strokes. Any comments, for or against?
 
I've just started to try this and it seems to be working well so far. By going to a slightly higher angle I can create a microbevel and remove the burr at the same time.

Some people say the best way to remove burrs is with edge-trailing strokes. Any comments, for or against?

I'm sure there's differing opinions out there but for a microbevel I usually prefer edge leading, and most people I've seen using that method seem to use edge leading as well.
 
By going to a slightly higher angle I can create a microbevel and remove the burr at the same time.
this technique has to work, always, in theory. in practice there's no guarantee. you can shear off macro burr wire with it but not micro burr, especially not on ductile metals. on ductile metals any sharpening angle will create a burr, then you have a new burr on the micro bevel, etc.

successful deburring is then not a matter of angle or microbeveling but a matter of how skillful you execute the deburring manual motion, your manual technique in practice. can be uber challenging with cheaper steels and it's the main problem in sharpening. how to avoid a tough burr in the first place, how to break off a macro burr wire edge, how to shear off macro burr wire edge, how to strop off micro burr wire edge. especially the micro burr .. takes a good amount of efforts (sweat) from you, and there is no easy fail-proof way around it, if the micro burr is super small and persistent.
 
My problem has been solved with help from you guys. K80Shooter, you really made me think when you mentioned checking angles. What I found was that often, do to my lack of skill and experience, I had ground the primary bevel on one side of the blade very different from the primary bevel on the other side of the blade. Since the left and right bevels did not match, I would use my paper wheel to push the burr to one side but, since the other bevel was so much different, I would frequently roll the burr over the edge when I was trying to push it to the other side of the blade. Once I started paying close attention to making the primary bevels on either side of the blade as close as possible to be mirror images to each other, my blades became shaving sharp consistently. In about and hour I successfully sharpened five knives to shaving sharpness, including an Al Mar SERE2000 that I had about giving up ever getting sharp. Thank you all so very much!

The other advice about using other methods to sharpen knives is also much appreciated. I plan to learn as much as I can so that I will become skilled at several methods of sharpening. I especially want to become skilled at using water stones.

Now my next question. How do I take a knife from shaving sharp to scary, hair popping, hair whittling sharp? Can using higher grit belts do this and if so, how? I have belts with grits up to 3000. How do I progress say from 120 to 240, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2000, and finally to 3000 if it even makes since to do so? If not how do I do it on stones, a SharpMaker, etc?
 
Higher grit is not the issue, especially with belts ranging up to 3000 grit.

I did a demonstration for my boy scouts with a belt sander. I took a knife, and sawed concrete until it was dull. No edge at all, and hit both sides of the edge with a single grit (240 grit, if I remember) no progression, just worked up a quick small burr along the entire edge, then hit the edge on a chromium oxide loaded strop quickly enough to get the burr off, and shaved a big patch down my leg.

I'd you are getting a good apex, and removing the burr properly, you should be able to get pretty scary edges, hair jumping sharp with minimal grit progressions. If your fundamentals are solid.

Pay special attention on pressure and angles.

With a really fast moving belt, like those grinders have, you should not be having to use much if any pressure. You arn't grinding a main bevel, pre heat treat. Not trying to remove a lot of steel. The speed those belts run at, light pressure, quick strokes, mind the tip, don't round it.

Sounds like you have plenty of equipment to work with, especially with the higher grits, and paper wheels.

I can get hair whittling from a single grit stone (like a cheap Smith diamond stone and straight to a loaded strop.

Ditto for a few sheets of automotive sandpaper to strop.

Or diamond stone to a fine ceramic stick.

It helps me to have decent light, and pay attention to angles. Make sure you are getting the apex on each side.

With a strop, concentrate on your angle, and using no pressure/minimum pressure. Pay attention to the finishing of the strop strokes. Make sure you are not increasing past the apex angle and "sweeping" the edge. ( on a strop, the angle of attack is basically the angle at which the edge just starts to grab the strop to cut if you gently try this edge forward.... you don't actually need to cut the strop....i saw one idiot "expert" cutting his strop all to hell showing this) one. Many people also use enough pressure that the leather wraps the edge and dulls it. It is easy to polish an edge to mirror, but have a dull edge because you used too much pressure, or roll the spine upward at the end of the stroke.

Sandpaper sheets taped to a glass pane helped me get better at my mechanics on stropping. It is easy to see the scratch pattern as you switch grits. The glass is not forgiving of off angles either.

I have convexed many edges on a dense rubber strike pad on automotive sand paper as well.

Now, I rarely use my belt sander on my knives (fast belts tend to remove more material than needed). I still use it when I have a lot of material to hog off to get a desired result.

Mostly I set my angle with a diamond stone (I have a course and a fine). Then I hit both the standard Spyderco ceramic grits. These days, I often skip the loaded strop (depends on the steel and use).

A nicely apexed edge, off the normal fine Spyderco rod has a good bite, and will easily jump hairs off the arm (where the hair catches and leaps off either direction on the edge).

You can get polished edges that will shave effortlessly, but not cut some materials too well. I have backed off my tendency to over polish my edges, or spend too much time on the strop.

If I have a well apexed edge sometimes I will go from the fine diamond stone and do a pass or two per side on a strop, or even skip the strop and do a few strokes per side on a ceramic rod (usually held in my hands, because I can feel/get feedback from the steel/edge better).


There is no wrong or right. Technique is vastly more important than nice equipment.

Repeatability is also more important than even a perfect edge angle. Spend 1000 on a top of the line fixed sharpening system, with all the grits up to silly high numbers, and if you don't make a proper apex at the start, and move on to higher grits before the lower grits are biting, scary sharp, and you are just polishing a shoulder . Not the edge/apex. I've made that mistake with a fixed angle system. Also with hand held stones, and bench stones. And ceramic sticks. Etc.

Even off a 150 grit course stone, if you do low pressure, consistent passes, you should have a grabby sharp edge. Same with 400 grit "fine" diamond.

Many makers/manufacturers sharpen with a 400 grit belt then knock the bur off and it should jump hairs.


Even an uneven bevel can be sharp. I've done chisel grind, or other odd grinds and had wicked sharp edges. Even did a 1/2 convex (with one edge being convexed, the other flat, very low angle like some earlier Busse used to use. Worked fine. Strop the convex edge, edge trailing stroke on the flat side with a ceramic.
 
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I'm glad you got it figured out.

Now I have three words for you...…… Practice, Practice, Practice.

When all else fails, return to the basics.
 
brando555, I also use edge-leading strokes to sharpen and microbevel and I'm sure that is the method most people use. But I've also read where people use edge-trailing strokes to remove burrs, and wouldn't do it any other way.

There probably is a study somewhere with a microscopic comparison of edge-leading and edge-trailing strokes when sharpening and removing burrs. If anyone knows of such a study I'd appreciate a link.

kreisler, I think I know what you're saying. To expand on that personally, for quite some time I was frustrated trying to get the perfect stone and technique for the steel I was reprofiling or sharpening. I finally gave up trying to attain perfection and am enjoying sharpening much more. There are so many variables, such as knife metal composition, sharpening stone materials, bonding agents, techniques, etc., to consider. Maybe there are some who have found the perfect knife/stone/technique combination, but I'm not one of them.

Regarding burrs, one thing that probably makes it a little easier for me than some people is that I'm satisfied with a good utility, toothy edge. I try to remove all burrs, of course, but I doubt if micro burrs have as much of a negative effect on relatively coarse toothy edges as those that are highly refined and polished.

I'd you are getting a good apex, and removing the burr properly, you should be able to get pretty scary edges, hair jumping sharp with minimal grit progressions. If your fundamentals are solid.

Yes! It took a lot of learning, and trial and error, but it sure felt good when I was finally able to freehand a shaving-sharp edge with low grit stones.
 
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I ordered The Razer's Edge of Sharpening by John Juranitch and it should be here tomorrow. I obviously need help and this book cannot hurt. I intend to read it cover-to-cover before I grind another blade.
 
chuckasher55, I think that's wise.

The book took the mystery out of sharpening for me. Once it was clear to me what sharpening really is, and how to do it, then the actual sharpening process became simple.

The drawings and diagrams can seem a little complicated and maybe confusing at first, but they are explained very well in detail. It's worth taking time to study them. They, and the accompanying text, explain the basic principles of sharpening better than anything else I've ever seen or read. Once I learned the basics, which are also surprisingly simple, and how to apply them to get a sharp knife edge, all the other great info and advice I got online and from this forum made a lot more sense.
 
I hope you enjoy the book and find some good information in it.

I might be in the minority here: I found that book to be kind of weird and hard to understand. I have some online references that I liked a lot better. I can share those if you (chuckasher55) or others are interested.

I'm not trying to insult that classic book. I still own mine. It just didn't work that well for me.

Brian.
 
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