Bushcraft Fixed Blade legal to store in car

[vansman]

Hello all.
I live in California.
I am considering one of Morakniv's offerings, or a Cold Steel SRK.
Both are incredibly cheap (all less than $40), so they are options for me ATM.
I need something larger than my folder for my bugout bag, and also if I ever go camping they would come in quite handy.

I own a van that is also converted into a camper.
Sometimes, whilst on the way to camping, I take a "break" on the side of the road to catch some z's.
A van can be partitioned into 2 sections:

-drivers area/glovebox/any immediately reachable area.
This is the concern for most people, as they use their car primarily for driving.

-rear of the van.
This is where it is converted into a camper setup, and where I would likely be storing it.
I don't break any driving laws, and I am in fact usually always following speed limits.
I'm not in much of a hurry to get anywhere, and if I am in or travelling to a dense area, I plan far far ahead of time while keeping in mind that it's crazy and that there will be a ton of traffic/people everywhere.
If I don't feel like doing that, I park in the outskirts and just ride my bike into town.
BUT, if I am in the van on some random road, or I pull off and sleep in the wrong place, what happens if the fixed blade is int he same compartment as where I am sleeping?
Is that considered something different?

I know that owning a fixed blade and transporting it through said vehicle to and from a place of recreation is likely legal, but how about if I just keep it in the van?

I guess I can keep my bugout bag in another place if I am travelling without going to any outdoorsy place, but I plan on getting rid of my storage soon, and I would like to keep everything in my van.
Otherwise it would just be easy to keep it in another place.

The knife would likely never leave it's bugout bag unless I play with it or go camping with it.
It would be stored with other bugout stuff like a folding saw, ferro rods, tarps, cord, fishing equipment, etc.

Thanks!

 

[Man with no name]

I drove a Jeep Wrangler for years. Basically the same problem you have with your van, no trunk that I could store a knife seperate from the "driving area" as the entire vehicle was considered the "driving area". So if the knife wasn't on my belt in its sheath I would put it in a back pack then put a small lock on that.

 

[King of the Cheese]

I would go with the SRK. The mora is more a leisurely camping type knife. It’s not full tang, and it’s thin.

The SRK can be batoned through trees and stabbed through car hoods. My SRK is my Armageddon knife... and I’d choose it over all others despite how inexpensive it is. It is the quintessential survival knife.

 

[fishface5]

Looking at CA statues - although individual county and municipal regs can be more restrictive - fixed blades must be carried unconcealed, however the following provision about vehicles is contained only in the statute about switchblades: it is prohibited to "Possesses the knife in the passenger’s or driver’s area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the public."

 

[killgar]

Late to the party.

It is perfectly legal in the state of California, under state law, to have a fixed-blade of any size in any part of your vehicle, concealed or visible. This includes places like center consoles and door compartments, glove compartments, hidden under the dash or seat, etc, etc. Anywhere.

The law that says fixed-blades must be carried openly and unconcealed specifically refers to carrying the knife "upon the person", meaning physically on your body/in your clothes. It does not apply to vehicles. It doesn't even apply to backpacks or other baggage (perfectly legal to walk around in California with a fixed-blade completely concealed in a backpack, duffel bag, etc). There is case law on all of this. And I can't think of any contradicting local laws.

The only laws I've ever seen regarding knives in cars says you can't have a switchblade or butterfly knife with a blade 2" or longer in the driver or passenger area of the vehicle, including glove compartment. Trunk is perfectly legal though.

 

[Corey.L]

Police should have no reason to question you if there is ample evidence, as you have described, to show that you have no ill intentions

 

[Borbert]

I think it`s ok if you pit your knife in a back pack.

 

[CallMeDave]

Late to the party.

It is ... (perfectly legal to walk around in California with a fixed-blade completely concealed in a backpack, duffel bag, etc). There is case law on all of this.

I don't think this is accurate anymore. There had been a CA Superior Court ruling vacating a conviction for a guy with something sharp (I think it was throwing stars) in his backpack, accepting the defense claim that the law's wording of "on the person" doesn't apply to the backpack, and that the state legislature could have used "on or about the person" but did not.

But later the CA Supreme Court upheld a conviction for a firearm in a backpack, with the higher court holding "on the person" _did_ include the backpack if the defendant was wearing or holding it at the time.

I lash my (small) fixed blade to the outside of my bag now so it's visible.

 

[killgar]

I don't think this is accurate anymore. There had been a CA Superior Court ruling vacating a conviction for a guy with something sharp (I think it was throwing stars) in his backpack, accepting the defense claim that the law's wording of "on the person" doesn't apply to the backpack, and that the state legislature could have used "on or about the person" but did not.

But later the CA Supreme Court upheld a conviction for a firearm in a backpack, with the higher court holding "on the person" _did_ include the backpack if the defendant was wearing or holding it at the time.

I lash my (small) fixed blade to the outside of my bag now so it's visible.

Time for some legal hair-splitting.

I believe the first case you are referring to is People v. Pellecer. In that case a man was convicted of carrying a concealed "dirk or dagger" after police found three throwing knives in his backpack. His conviction was later overturned on appeal because the court ruled that the knives being zipped in his backpack did not constitute "upon the person", which is what the statute requires for a conviction.

And I believe the other case you are referring to is People v. Wade. In which Mr. Wade was caught carrying a loaded firearm in his backpack. He was charged with carrying a firearm concealed upon his person. The trial judge dismissed that charge citing P V Pellecer, but the prosecution appealed that decision and the Appeals Court reversed the trial judge by ruling that Wade could be charged with carrying a firearm concealed upon his person, a decision that was affirmed by the CA Supreme Court.

Now for the hair-splitting- Mr. Pellecer was convicted under CA pc 21310 (concealed dirks and daggers), and Mr. Wade was charged under CA pc. 25850 (concealed firearms), these are two different laws. In ruling against Mr. Wade the court specifically referenced People v. Pellecer and determined that it was not relevant to Wades case. They went on to draw distinctions between Pellecer and Wade, explaining that Mr. Wade was wearing his backpack at the time police stopped him, and Mr. Pellecer was not, and that Mr. Wade's gun was readily accessible to him, and that Mr. Pellecer's knives were not.

By upholding the charge against Mr. Wade the court did not overturn the precedent of People v. Pellecer.

However, after reading People v. Wade in detail, I have changed my perspective on People v. Pellecer, and to err on the side of caution (and help keep people out of jail) I will no longer suggest to people that it is legal to carry a fixed-blade in a backpack or other bag. Although P v. Pellecer still stands, the distinction the court came up with in P v. Wade could leave an opening for prosecutors to obtain a sustainable conviction of someone carrying a fixed-blade concealed in a bag.

Thank you for your post. It has caused me to re-evaluate my perspective on carrying a fixed-blade in a backpack.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

I understand where you are coming from, killgar. I guess I just have a problem with the concept that one is illegally carrying a fixed blade knife in a concealed fashion when it is in its sheath, inside a backback, which is presumably closed except when actually accessing something in the pack, whether the pack is worn or carried by a strap.

The reason (allegedly) for precluding the concealed carry of a weapon is the surprise usage of the alleged concealed weapon on an unsuspecting victim.

The fact that the "wielder" of a fixed blade stowed in a sheath in a backpack could "surprise" anyone in an attack is ludicrous at best.

One would first need to remove the pack, open it, retreive the knife and remove it from the sheath, confront the victim with "AHAH!!! Gimme you're wallet." or "I'm gonna stab you."

Leave me with Texas where we don't care what kind of knife you are carrying, with limited exceptions where you aren't allowed to carry weapon of any sort.

 

[killgar]

You make very rational points Zzyzzogeton, unfortunately, and especially here in California, those who are responsible for executing the law (prosecutors, judges, juries) are not always motivated by rationality.

I was vaguely familiar with People v. Wade (I can't own firearms, so I don't follow gun laws). My understanding was that the charge against him was reinstated because the Appeals Court determined that he had ready access to his firearm, whatever that means. But in People v. Pellecer, a case I was much more familiar with because it involved knives, they determined that Mr. Pellecer didn't have ready access. I thought that was the distinction. But Callmedave's post prompted me to re-read the case law on P. v Wade, and that's when I saw that one distinction the court made was that Mr. Wade was carrying his backpack, and Mr. Pellecer was only laying on his (I believe they determined that laying on it is what made his knives less readily available to him).

My concern is that if the police find a person with a fixed-blade in a backpack that they are carrying, that some prosecutor might use P. v. Wade to get a conviction. I think such a scenario could be very possible. Maybe the conviction wouldn't hold up on appeal, but who wants to be the defendant who finds out. Prosecutors are always looking to expand the scope of existing laws to obtain convictions.

And I'm sure a clever prosecutor can make the argument that a sheathed fixed-blade carried inside a backpack is still readily accessible. After all, a sheathed fixed-blade worn on ones belt and carried concealed under ones clothing is considered readily accessible, and a clear violation of CA pc 21310.

Whenever I give an opinion on the law, I always follow the philosophy that I learned during my journey through the criminal justice system- "Always go the extra mile to stay out of jail". I now regard carrying a fixed-blade in a backpack as a grey area in the law. And when it comes to grey areas, I say err on the side of caution.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

I can definitely appreciate your conccern, especially given your personal experiences with the law out there. IIRC, you work in the ship terminal in San Diego. We have shipping work in Houston and Corpus Christi. Weather's not as good as SD but the cost of living is still cheaper and no income tax helps there.

I was assigned to 2 ships over 5 years in SD, but spent less than 12 months total NOT underway, including 5 months of schools. Still, I liked SD better than any other Navy base I was stationed at while on active duty. It's where I got into collecting bayonets and swords. Haven't been back to SD since 2009 and probably won't ever make it out there again based on a variety of factors.

 

[killgar]

I can definitely appreciate your conccern, especially given your personal experiences with the law out there. IIRC, you work in the ship terminal in San Diego. We have shipping work in Houston and Corpus Christi. Weather's not as good as SD but the cost of living is still cheaper and no income tax helps there.

I was assigned to 2 ships over 5 years in SD, but spent less than 12 months total NOT underway, including 5 months of schools. Still, I liked SD better than any other Navy base I was stationed at while on active duty. It's where I got into collecting bayonets and swords. Haven't been back to SD since 2009 and probably won't ever make it out there again based on a variety of factors.

I worked in shipping many years ago (shipping and receiving domestic and international freight). When I refer to that job I tend to reference "shipping dock", but it was an inland warehouse, "shipping dock" was the term used for the platform area where we loaded and unloaded cargo from the trucks, no actual ships involved.

I worked construction after that (which I had worked in my teens), then started my own contracting business. I recently sold that business and am now retired.

The weather is definitely what appeals to me about San Diego. I seriously considered moving to Arizona, but I really hate hot weather, and AZ gets SUPER HOT. Long ago I chose motorcycles as my sole means of transportation, and riding is pretty rough in really hot weather, you get absolutely BAKED (no shade, no air conditioning). So I prefer to avoid places that get really hot, as well as places that get snow or a lot of rain. For motorcycles San Diego is pretty much paradise.

But on the other side of the scale, housing costs are really high, and we pay some of the highest gas prices in the country. And although the knife laws in CA aren't the worst, they're still not as good as some states (like AZ).

Oh well, you take the bad with the good. I have no plans to move anytime soon.

 

[Bootaka]

CA is weird when it comes to things like this. You can't have a baseball bat in your vehicle, that is not accompanied by a glove and/or ball. Friend of mine had just bought a new bat, got a call and had to pick up friends at the airport, bat was new in the package with receipt dated less than an hour before. He was detained and ticketed for having a weapon behind the seat of his truck, not having associated sports equipment deemed it a weapon. They said nothing about the machete in the same truck with other tools.
I've been stopped many times (not in an airport) while having a legal fixed blade in my car or in my backpack. They didn't bother me about it, I told them it was there, I told them why it was there (usually with other tools), they let me move along. Can't say if it is legal or not to carry a fixed blade in such a way, can say, carrying tools in my car or my bag hasn't been an issue that they've brought to my attention.